Any longtime reader of GetReligion knows that the gang here likes Q&A interviews, especially when they allow newsmakers to dig deeper into complex topics and tell their own stories in their own words. I think this journalistic tool is especially valuable on the religion beat — which is so rich in history, symbolism and doctrine.
At the same time, as we saw the other day with that interview with U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, this format can produce awkward moments. What happens when the newsmaker says something that is a real eyebrow raiser? Is the journalist obligated to recognize this and probe deeper, which might anger the person being interviewed?
What should a journalist do with a newsmaker makes a strong fact claim that just doesn’t sound right? Should the journalist (a) jump back and ask for some kind of source for the fact? Or should the reporter (b) research the answer later and actually publish a correction, offering links to evidence that may or may not undercut the viewpoint of the newsmaker?
Take, for example, the New York Times interview that veteran Godbeat reporter Laurie Goodstein’s just conducted with the openly gay bishop whose 2003 consecration — in the dominant mass-media timeline — is turning the global Anglican Communion upside down.
New Hampshire Bishop V. Gene Robinson is a busy man at the moment, since he is the living symbol of the Episcopal Church establishment’s sweeping victories this week on the ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians and the green light for more official work on gender-neutral marriage liturgies. The bishop obviously chose his venue carefully, speaking to the journalistic bible of a church rooted in the elite structures of the Northeast’s urban corridor.
Q: Thank you for making the time. You must have a lot of interview requests.
A: Yes, and I’m not doing any interviews, except this one. A lot of requests came in after the bishops’ first vote on Monday (to allow for the consecration of more gay bishops). Of course, the possibility of there being another gay bishop in the House is something I’ve longed for for a long time. But I didn’t feel like talking. I felt very sober. I know that what we’ve done here will be very difficult for a lot of people in that room, and in the Communion.
There is much here for Episcopalians and Anglicans to read and to mull over, as the events roll forward.
However, it was an answer near the end that caught my eye and raised some questions.
Q: What has been the fallout of all of this on your own diocese, in New Hampshire? Have you lost many church members?
A: Except for one parish in Rochester early on, no. That left about 15 people in that congregation, they met for about a year, and then asked me to close them down because there weren’t enough people to sustain a continued parish. That’s all. That’s it. There’s no one, no priests or parishes associated with the breakaway groups. Our diocese grew by 3 percent last year. …
Q: Who are you pulling in?
A: We have received so many Roman Catholics and young families, particularly families who are saying, “We don’t want to raise our daughters in a church that doesn’t value young people in our church.”
While I am sure that Robinson’s take on the Catholic Church will cause a few ripples, I don’t expect much fallout — largely because ecumenical dialogues between the Episcopal Church and most U.S. Catholic leaders were already so tense.
No, what caught my interest was his statement that membership in the New Hampshire diocese has been growing, during this national and global firestorm. Now, he says that his flock grew 3 percent “last year.” I would assume that this is the church year 2007-2008.
Anyway, a sudden burst of growth would be highly unusual in the context of a liberal mainline church. The bishop could also be making an indirect reference to attendance, rather than membership.
Still, I urge readers to click here and check out the official statistics (it’s a .pdf document) over at EpiscopalChurch.org — which show that membership numbers in the New Hampshire diocese declined 18.1 percent between 1997 and 2007. And recently? They fell 9.4 percent between 2003 and 2007. In the most recent year on the chart — 2006-2007 — the diocese lost 1.3 percent of its active, baptized members. The bishop told the Times that his diocese currently has 15,000 members, while the chart shows 14,160 for 2006-2007.
It’s true that church statistics are often produced with smoke and mirrors — but with the numbers higher than they should be. Robinson’s flock may have taken a leap forward on the charts in 2007-2008. But that would be a very unusual and very, very newsworthy change in the recent fortunes of that diocese (and strange for an Episcopal diocese in the Northeast, as well).
In other words, this Q&A in the Times contains a big news story — one that would shock many Anglicans around the world. If it’s true.
As I said earlier, I do not know if major newspapers are supposed to verify the accuracy of the information that they publish — with clear attribution — in these kinds of verbatim interviews. However, at the very least, this shocker deserved a follow-up question.
 | Posted at 2:45 pm |  Print
| Permalink | Trackback |
Comments (20) |
July 17, 2009, at 3:56 pm
My initial reaction is that IMHO viturally everybody involved in the religion beat is so bad at statistics that this passed unnoticed. Upon reflection, the number of people involved would be about 420, or 105 families of 4. This does not seem unrealistic. But it ignores normal attrition thru death, relocation etc. Beyond that, no idea.
July 17, 2009, at 3:58 pm
A reversal of a solid decade-long trend would be news — especially if linked to such an important symbolic change and figure. A major claim of the Episcopal left is that the changes it wants will bring an end to the decline and a new era of growth.
July 17, 2009, at 3:59 pm
A) ” journalistic bible of a church rooted in the elite structures of the Northeast’s urban corridor” Shouldn’t that be ” journalistic bible of a church rooted in the elite structures of the cold, decaying, and intellectually and fiscally bankrupt urban Northeast”?
B) His diocese currently has 14,160 members?? There are SEVERAL Churches in Houston that have more members than that. I”m not just talking Lakewood and the mega-churches. I think if you count baptized members, and not weekly attendance (as I assume the Bishop is) St. John the Divine and St. Martins Episcopal beat that number…certianly when combined and possibly even individually. …
July 17, 2009, at 4:00 pm
Sorry, I sporfled while reading the good bishop’s remarks.
For a man who hardly ever does interviews, doesn’t feel like talking, and only wants to be a simple country bishop, he’s never out of the papers giving speeches and addresses and reactions and comments and remarks and sermons and introductions and reflections.
July 17, 2009, at 4:19 pm
[…] Terry Mattingly catches Robbie lying through his teeth. […]
July 17, 2009, at 4:28 pm
ECUSA keeps about as good statistics as anyone, and one would thing that Goodstein, of all people, ought to know where to find them. If one is into graphics, this chart shows clearly that (like ECUSA as a whole, and most other dioceses) New Hampshire was holding more or less steady until 2003 and then went into a steady decline.
Unfortunately this sort of thing seems to happen in reportage and interviewing all the time. Interviewers simply do not take the time to prepare unless they have specifically come to rake the subject over the coals.
July 17, 2009, at 4:30 pm
Here’s a link to the Blue Book, the report prepared for General Convention:
http://episcopalchurch.org/gc2009_106480_ENG_HTM.htm
It gives the New Hampshire diocese numbers for 2007 as 14, 160. Now, okay, maybe between 2007 and now, there was an influx of ‘transfers in’ from other denominations and there are currently 15,000 members.
That still is not up to the 2003 level of membership, and this is in a diocese which is (allegedly) reporting growth.
Even the Blue Book acknowledges what it calls “the elephant in the room”:
Last, in prior years the Committee on the State of the Church often heard the criticism that our church seemed unwilling to recognize the presence of a major source of internal controversy that some argued was having an impact on our common life, as reflected in declining membership and attendance statistics. The metaphor most often used was that we “failed to acknowledge the elephant in the room,” referring to what many viewed as the momentous decision by the 74th General Convention (2003) to consent to the consecration of the Bishop of New Hampshire. In the 2005 Faith Communities Survey in which about 4,000 of The Episcopal Church’s congregations participated, about 37% reported having at least one very serious internal conflict, resulting in some members leaving the church.
Fifty-three percent reported that the conflict was resolved. When asked about the source of the conflict, 35% of those reporting very serious conflict stated that it was over the decisions of the 2003 General Convention.
In the 2008 Faith Communities Today Survey of Episcopal parishes and missions, reports of conflict over that issue have not diminished: 64% of Episcopal congregations acknowledge having some kind of conflict over the ordination of gay clergy. And most of that conflict was of a serious nature. Overall, 47% of Episcopal congregations had serious conflict over this issue, 40% indicated that some people left and 18% indicated that some people withheld funds. Furthermore, the rate of decline in Average Sunday Attendance from 2003-2007 among congregations with serious conflict over the ordination of gay clergy was 35% higher than congregations with no conflict over the issue(and accounted for more than double the aggregate loss).”
July 17, 2009, at 4:59 pm
There’s no answer right now at the Episcopal Research and Statistics office—they’re probably out in Anaheim. Average Sunday attendance in New Hampshire was 4,281—so maybe that is up
July 17, 2009, at 5:34 pm
I am always stunned by the numbers in reporting about the Episcopal church. Considering the amount of newsprint devoted to Bishop Robinson one would think his flock numbers in the millions. Instead his flock is about the size of a few good sized urban Catholic parishes, or a couple of evangelical megachurches. Why all this attention on him, and his church?
Statistically the Episcopal church is something like 2% in America… and seemingly gets more than 50% of the media coverage.
July 17, 2009, at 6:07 pm
In my opinion one reason The Episcopal Church gets grossly overcovered is because of its trashing of traditional Christian moral teachings and basic Christological doctrines while having the smells, bells, and look of the Catholic Church. Thus, some in the MSM probably feel it is a good spear to shove into the side of the Catholic Church as a means of promoting the liberal agenda.
Otherwise, by the membership numbers, there is no more reason to pay any attention to the Episcopal Church than there is to giving blanket coverage to a local Little League game.
July 17, 2009, at 6:57 pm
DEACON:
Ha! You nailed it, IMHO.
This is how I wrote that up, 15 years ago. Yes, this was written while I was in the Episcopal Church, on the way to Orthodoxy.
http://www.tmatt.net/tmatt/freelance/ecpress.htm
The key: Looks Catholic, acts like, well, the mainstream press at prayer (or a large part of it, according to the studies)?
July 17, 2009, at 8:26 pm
Doing so well that he’s having to cut staff and admit that congregations are faltering financially (along with membership and attendance, another measure of church life):
http://www.nhepiscopal.org/artman/publish/article_804.shtml
http://www.allsts.org/pdffiles/Pastoral%20Letter%20January%202009.pdf
July 17, 2009, at 9:06 pm
tmatt, you had exactly the same question as did I! I emailed Laurie Goodstein personally today, asking her to confirm these numbers with the Research & Statistics Office of The Episcopal Church.
I’ll let you know if I ever hear back from her!
July 17, 2009, at 11:32 pm
It is more appropriate to compare membership from 2002 (before Robinson) to the 2007 (last year that statistics are out). If one looks at 2002 to 2003, there is a big drop which one should sttribute to the Robinson effect which is missed by your calculation of percent drop from 2003 to 2007. By this, there was a 15% drop (as opposed to 9.4% from 2003 to 2007). This compares the pre-Robinson to the latest Robinson to give the full Robinson effect.
If one looks at attendance the numbers are worse. We know that membership numbers can be fudged by simply keeping people on the church rolls that have long gone. Attendance has dropped 17% from 2002 to 2007 with whopping 6% drop last year alone.
Robinson promised “countless” would replace those that flee the revisionists.
For the nerdy (like myself), here are the attendance numbers with the percent drop from 2002-7:
2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
5,174 4,858 4,746 4,671 4,553 4,281
***** 6.107 2.305 1.580 2.526 5.974
July 18, 2009, at 7:23 am
While we’re factchecking, it also might be worthwhile noting that a couple clicks will verify that contrary to Robinson’s assertion that there are “no priests or parishes associated with the breakaway groups” in his state, the ACNA website lists 4 parishes in NH: http://www.theacna.org/parishes/NH/
July 18, 2009, at 9:13 am
4., 10. and 11.: spot-on.
ROTFLMAO! So Episcopalians have lots of kids, more than RCs?! So the latter don’t value kids, which is why they’re not allowed to abort unplanned ones and there’s World Youth Day, not to mention all the blogging conservative kids learning to chant in Latin.
The untruth of his remark here is as big as the numbers one and should have been challenged.
July 18, 2009, at 9:37 am
The young fogey hits another great point. Remember that the The Episcopal Church has one of the oldest demographic profiles of any religious body in the US. The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life reports that 59% of Episcopalians are age 50+. For comparison, people age 50+ account for 46% of all Protestants, 40% of Catholics, 34% of Mormons, 30% of nondenominational evangelicals.
Perhaps reporters should have permanent fact-checkers assigned to Bishop Robinson.
July 18, 2009, at 4:56 pm
You know what makes me wonder? Why a person would make a statement to the NYT that is factually false. If I was going to lie, I would say something like ‘I have it on good authority that a boat load of Catholics are due to come to the Episcopal Church’, or something like that. No proof to be found that I’m right or wrong. Why would I say something that, if factually false, a simple google search could prove wrong? And this isn’t the first time. He has said this several times since he became bishop, that things were looking better than ever. Perhaps he says it because he’s noticed that when he says it, nobody - at least in the MSM - seems curious to find out if he’s wrong. And maybe he said it in the first place because he already believed that nobody in the MSM would be curious to find out of he’s wrong.
July 18, 2009, at 7:16 pm
Robroy beat me. I was going to note how awful the average Sunday attendance is for New Hampshire, much worse than the membership decline.
New Hampshire ranked 76th out of 100 domestic Episcopal dioceses for the period 2002-2007 for attendance “growth” - in fact there was a 17.3% decline in attendance during that period.
July 22, 2009, at 3:27 pm
For the record, Laurie Goodstein makes amends — sort of — in this article.