Last Sunday, late-term abortion doctor George Tiller was gunned down in the foyer of his Lutheran church, where he served as an usher. As anyone with even a cursory understanding of Lutheranism in America could surmise, that church was a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Of the various Lutheran church bodies in America, the ELCA is the most mainline and has the most supportive position on legalized abortion.
As soon as the terrible news about Tiller’s murder hit the wire, many bloggers and liberal pundits noted that Tiller’s active church membership was at odds with the stereotype of how abortion and religion are related. It didn’t take long for that same meme to make it to the mainstream media stories.
What none of these stories have explained is that Tiller had previously been excommunicated by a Lutheran congregation on account of his lack of repentance about and refusal to stop his occupation. That Lutheran congregation was a member of my church body, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Excommunication doesn’t happen terribly frequently in this day and age but it’s not unheard of. I don’t know any of the specifics about his past congregation or what led to the discipline and anticipated learning more about it when it was covered by the mainstream media. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened.
When the news broke, I had many people who know that I’m Lutheran ask how it was possible that his church had not disciplined him or otherwise encouraged him to stop performing abortions. I had hoped that there would be stories exploring Tiller’s religious beliefs and church membership and that the stories would explain the difference between the ELCA and the LCMS. There is obviously quite a difference between a church body that would discipline a practicing abortion doctor and one that would welcome him in membership.
While we did get some stories about his religious views, none of them seemed to have any clue about his religious history. Note, for instance, this piece from the Salt Lake Tribune that was written Religion News Service’s Lindsay Perna and Tiffany Stanley:
Dr. George Tiller’s murder last Sunday morning in the lobby of his Lutheran church counters the secular image of a late-term abortion provider, pinning him more as a churchgoing “martyr” than a godless murderer.
Shot and killed while passing out bulletins in the lobby of his Wichita, Kan., church as his wife sat in the choir, Tiller is already challenging popular perceptions of both abortion providers and the abortion-rights movement.
“It shows a dimension of the movement that a lot of people don’t know about,” said the Rev. Carlton Veazey, president of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. “This man was castigated for what he did — but he was a faithful member of the Lutheran church and that gives a different view of him and his work.”
Veazey sees the face of Tiller as more of “a martyr in the same sense that Dr. [Martin Luther] King was.”
The story goes on to quote various people about how Tiller’s church membership changes the dynamics of the abortion debate. How can they not mention that he was previously excommunicated for his abortion work? It’s such an interesting and significant part of the story! That’s just a huge hole.
Also, the pro-life people who are quoted in the story are of the Randall Terry variety. With the typical pro-choice activists and typical pro-life activists quoted, the story remains in the muck of “bumper sticker” rhetoric. It’s disappointing. (Robin Abcarian’s piece in the Los Angeles Times dealt solely with the Tiller funeral, which means its sympathetic tone is more appropriate. It also took the ‘Tiller busts stereotypes’ approach.)
After Dr. Tiller’s murder, some pundits were confused about how people who see abortion as the unjust killing of babies could also oppose the murder of someone who killed those babies. Here was one such essay written by a fellow libertarian. I saw one letter to the editor written by clergymen in my church body that addressed just that issue:
There is an old saying: Two wrongs don’t make a right. This does not appear in the Bible but it certainly reflects a scriptural idea. This concept, that two wrongs don’t make a right, is certainly true in the case of the murder of Dr. George Tiller.
Dr. Tiller was an infamous abortionist, who was one of the very few in the country who would perform late-term abortions. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod is strongly pro-life, and condemns the practice of abortion. Dr. Tiller, a former member of a Missouri Synod congregation, was excommunicated by that congregation for his abortion practice. (The congregation he was currently attending is part of another Lutheran body.) We stand by that action. Our sister congregation acted properly in disciplining Dr. Tiller. Such action is always intended to lead a person to see their sins and come to repentance. Excommunication is never intended to bring that person harm.
While we condemn Dr. Tiller’s actions as an abortionist, we just as strongly condemn the actions of the person who took his life. Murder, even of a murderer, is never acceptable. God teaches us in Romans 13 and other places, that the government is in place to enforce justice. We are never to take private vengeance. This is simply not given to private individuals. Murder in any circumstances is a grievous sin. It was our utmost desire that Dr. Tiller come to repentance, and perhaps in time he may have. We do not know. Only God sees all ends. Sadly, because of this heinous act of violence, Dr. Tiller no longer has that opportunity.
I can’t help but think that some enterprising reporter should look at how the two Lutheran church bodies handled Dr. Tiller’s occupation differently. It’s disappointing to read that RNS story in light of this rather dramatic back story.
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June 8, 2009, at 8:57 am
[…] Read it. Last Sunday, late-term abortion doctor George Tiller was gunned down in the foyer of his Lutheran church, where he served as an usher. As anyone with even a cursory understanding of Lutheranism in America could surmise, that church was a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Of the various Lutheran church bodies in America, the ELCA is the most mainline and has the most supportive position on legalized abortion. What none of these stories have explained is that Tiller had previously been excommunicated by a Lutheran congregation on account of his lack of repentance about and refusal to stop his occupation. That Lutheran congregation was a member of my church body, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Excommunication doesn’t happen terribly frequently in this day and age but it’s not unheard of. I don’t know any of the specifics about his past congregation or what led to the discipline and anticipated learning more about it when it was covered by the mainstream media. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened. There is obviously quite a difference between a church body that would discipline a practicing abortion doctor and one that would welcome him in membership. […]
June 8, 2009, at 9:08 am
There’s a fundamental error here that there is no reason to believe this killing was “vengeance”. Vengeance is punishment for past sins. However this may be a killing to prevent future sins. Frankly, all people, Christians and non-Christians agree that taking the law into your own hands to prevent a future death can be acceptable. Not everyone agrees that this scenario is such a valid scenario, but nobody has come up with some firm and clear reasons why not.
June 8, 2009, at 9:17 am
I am not Lutheran, but as a Christian I was confronted with may who asked me about Tiller and a Church going late-term abortion doctor. I attempted to explain the differences between the ELCA and the LCMS, but Lutheran was the only aspect that arose. I don’t think the difference between ELCA and LCMS are being highlighted because that would lessen the “impact” of the story. Tiller wouldn’t be as much an exception to the rule. The reality is a member of the ELCA avidly supporting abortion rights and performing abortion rights is akin to a PCUSA member supporting a homosexual lifestyle.
June 8, 2009, at 9:30 am
[…] Mr Tiller, a Lutheran, had been excommunicated by the LCMS and was attending an ELCA church. So … how may articles about him attempted to explain the different Lutheran denominations? Is that relevant as a background to the story? […]
June 8, 2009, at 9:31 am
The reason why this RNS story didn’t delve into the differences between the ELCA and LCMS is because that’s not what this story was about. The story was focused on a church-going abortionist; it didn’t matter to us which church. What’s more, we had no idea that Tiller had once been LCMS and had been excommunicated. If we had, that could have been a story, but the churches were on a media black-out and weren’t talking to the press in any significant way.
It strikes me that if the LCMS cared so deeply about this distinction, it should have put out a media statement to say “that’s not us” and explain the excommunication. That’s when we would have written about it.
June 8, 2009, at 9:38 am
[…] Mr Tiller, a Lutheran, had been excommunicated by the LCMS and was attending an ELCA church. So … how may articles about him attempted to explain the different Lutheran denominations? Is that relevant as a background to the story? […]
June 8, 2009, at 9:47 am
Dates would be helpful here. Exactly when was he excommunicated. Also where, how (public or private), under what circumstances would help. Was the excommunication from an individual pastor or did the parish board issue it. Was the excommunication for his home church or denomination wide. I have known a number of people excommunicated from the LCMS. The information here does not rise above the level of gossip.
June 8, 2009, at 9:54 am
Wow, this is an interesting post, and certainly points out the failure to “get” a religion angle. Then again, as a former reporter, I’m sympathetic to Kevin’s post (6) when he says the church spokespeople clammed up and didn’t speak to these issues. What was he supposed to do, dream up sources for a storyline of which he was unaware?
As a current PR professional, I groan when I hear of companies, individuals and even churches that think using the “no comment” line indefinitely will make a story go away. It might, but it won’t clarify issues that will fester in people’s minds.
A poster in a previous post said “Why is this a religious story?” This is the answer. Because it involved an excommunication.
June 8, 2009, at 10:15 am
I don’t buy the “they never told us” line, considering how speculative and off the record reporting has become these days. If this blog can find out that he was excommunicated (I doubt the writer was a leading Lutheran insider or PR person) then the reporters could at least find out on their own. This is a case of Lazy and not Hard journalism. Of course, this comes off as more bias news reporting based less on facts and more on PC story telling.
June 8, 2009, at 10:16 am
I find Kevin’s (#6) response interesting - he asserts that
but I think “which church” is entirely the point - it matters because of the ELCA postion on abortion. It only doesn’t matter if the point of the story is say “look, this abortion doctor went to a Lutheran church, and everyone knows that Lutherans oppose abortion - how did that happen?”
I also find his comment interesting about waiting for a press release from LCMS - have the cutbacks in the newsrooms hit so hard that now reporters need a press release to write a story?
June 8, 2009, at 10:16 am
dalea,
Excellent questions. In my church, excommunication is by definition a public act. It’s done by a congregation as a whole rather than an individual pastor or parish board. Excommunication is both, so to speak at the home church and denomination wide. Meaning, you’re not a member of the LCMS but, rather, a member of an LCMS congregation. If a congregation excommunicates you, you are no longer part of the entire church fellowship — congregation or church wide.
Also, I was talking about, as I noted, public acts. It’s not gossip.
June 8, 2009, at 10:17 am
Kevin,
I figured that you didn’t know he was excommunicated. But I hope that in general you don’t wait for people to issue press releases before investigating particular angles.
June 8, 2009, at 10:23 am
Expecting reporters to intuit an excommunication when the church isn’t talking and the excommunicatee is dead, is a bit of a stretch to claim that the press doesn’t get religion.
June 8, 2009, at 10:27 am
#3 — I’m not sure your characterization of ELCA members is quite correct. While the church is to the left of the LCMS on a number of issues, there are quite a few ELCA congregations that are more anti-abortion than the church as a whole, and there are lots of ELCA members in Lutherans for Life and other “pro-life” groups. This is especially true the farther you get from major metropolitan areas. I’ve attended numerous ELCA churches, and I have never been to one that I would describe as “avidly supporting abortion rights”.
June 8, 2009, at 10:31 am
Well, now that some reporters do know, is this going to be placed in stories or have a story? Or, most likely, is this going to continue to be ignored and never featured with the excuse it isn’t pertinent any more? Stop making excuses and start doing your job.
June 8, 2009, at 10:40 am
Since I doubt most reporters or even Americans understand what excommunication really is, it would just be another point to explain about religion.
But knowing all that, it would be interesting, at least to me, to find out what process was followed when Dr. Tiller became a member of his most recent congregation. Excommunications are supposed to be recognized and honored throughout Christianity, not just within a particular denomination. I wonder if it was just ignored, not dealt with, or whether it was investigated and specifically overturned.
Today, though, it seems many churches just don’t care about previous excommunications.
June 8, 2009, at 10:42 am
I understand why the LCMS and Tiller’s former LCMS congregation might not want to highlight the excommunication angle, as it would be awfully easy to say something that could be misconstrued as supporting the murder of Tiller. Perhaps the best PR strategy is to remain silent.
On the other hand, Tiller’s long-time membership has given Lutheranism a bad name among abortion opponents and it is useful to distinguish between LCMS and ELCA postions on abortion to set the record straight.
June 8, 2009, at 10:58 am
Curious to know if the church which excommunicated Tiller also excommunicates doctors who administer legal injections in death penalty cases. Or “baby killer” soldiers and their commanding officers in times of “preemptive” war. Seems the so-called “pro-life” crowd really isn’t “pro-life” at all.
June 8, 2009, at 11:09 am
Ah, Mark, the good old line about how you’re not really pro-life if you don’t tick off all the boxes on the check-list of the pro-choice crowd.
Can you fill me in on Dr. Tiller’s opinion of soldiers, the death penalty, or euthanasia? Maybe he supported doctors administering lethal injections, how do you know?
Mollie, I don’t know your church’s position on the state of the man’s soul, nor indeed that of ELCA, but for certain clergypersons - like the new President of Episcopal Divinity School - he’s a saint and a martyr:
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/02/slain-abortionist-mourned-as-saint-martyr/?c=106028
“St. Paul’s Episcopal Cathedral in Boston held an evening memorial service where the Very Rev. Katherine Ragsdale, president of Episcopal Divinity School in nearby Cambridge, was one of several scheduled speakers.
“This is about the loss of a man who was a saint and a martyr,” she said in an interview before the service. “He was a prayerful man who put his life at risk to protect others and died for it. People are in shock, outrage and mourning. They need a place to go.”
Ms. Ragsdale said she once visited Dr. Tiller’s clinic in Wichita to defend it from anti-abortion protests. She has been excoriated on conservative Web sites for a July 21, 2007, speech in Birmingham, Ala., where she called abortion “a blessing.”
Reconstructionist Rabbi Arthur Waskow of the Philadelphia-based Shalom Center said Dr. Tiller “joins the list of martyrs for ethical decency and human rights, killed for healing with compassion.”
An Episcopalian and a Rabbi declaring a Lutheran a saint - who says ecumenism isn’t working?
June 8, 2009, at 11:31 am
Martha: A church that would excommunicate someone for “murder” but doesn’t excommunicate those engaged in intentional, premeditated killing (like doctors who administer legal injections or soldiers that “kill babies”) is hypocritcal.
June 8, 2009, at 11:49 am
Mark,
How do you know that the LCMS doesn’t excommunicate for the reasons you mention? Can you give an example of an unrepentant “baby killer” soldier or executioner who remained in an LCMS church even after the whole congregation became aware of what was going on?
Your charge of hypocrisy is shallow and demonstrates that you don’t have much grasp of the reasons why a person might or might not be excommunicated from a Lutheran church. It has nothing to do with one’s position on political issues.
June 8, 2009, at 11:50 am
I guess I was shocked to hear that Tiller was a member of any Lutheran Church. I grew up Catholic, and saw that chuch slide to the left. I know my particular denomination makes the LCMS look like flaming lefties, but geez, we’re talking infanticide. How can ANY church, calling themselves a Christian Church, possibly support the barbarous act.
June 8, 2009, at 12:22 pm
Few quick things
I don’t believe the ELCA has any public stand on abortion (in terms of its legality). I assume that because it has more liberals than the LCMS there must be more pro-choice folks, but the ELCA is not a member of the RCRC (which most mainline denoms are) so I’m not sure what characterization of the ELCA could be had. Apparently that they are less on keen on excommunication, that they have folks across the spectrum.
I think to recognize Tiller as a martyr is to say he died before his belief and practice. And it’s not like he didn’t. After his clinic was attacked, after he was shot (twice) one might have packed it in. He did not. Presumably because he actually believed in what he did and risked his life to continue to do it. Is that a celebration of late term abortions? I don’t think so. I don’t celebrate amputations either. But I’m glad there are doctors who do them if they are medically necessary.
June 8, 2009, at 12:32 pm
[…] http://www.getreligion.org/?p=13316 […]
June 8, 2009, at 12:33 pm
Mark,
Your comments are straying from the purpose of the blog. We discuss MEDIA COVERAGE of religious news. We don’t debate doctrine.
I’m going to delete your comments and others that responded.
Keep focused.
June 8, 2009, at 1:35 pm
Mark,
I meant what I said. We discuss MEDIA COVERAGE of religious news. Your latest round of insults and bad behavior got you a one-way ticket to the “spam” queue. Should you want to be part of the discussion, simply stay on topic.
Also, I feel like this is a no brainer … but … if you don’t want your comments deleted, don’t be a jerk.
Having said that, you are welcome to join the civil discourse here. Just put a little thought into your comments before you post. Are you insulting someone? Are you engaging in religious or political debate as opposed to discussion of mainstream media?
If you’re having trouble figuring out how it works, perhaps you should follow some comment threads before posting to see how other people disagree politely, stay on topic, etc.
Best,
Mollie
June 8, 2009, at 1:48 pm
Some media did report that the doctor had been excommunicated from his previous church before moving to the ELCA congregation.
It is interesting in following this that there seems to be no mention of the arrested gunman’s religion, or lack thereof.
June 8, 2009, at 1:51 pm
Retired Reporter,
Really? I would love to see those stories. I didn’t find any when I searched (although Google, et. al., have been known to fail …). Please provide links!
Also, excellent point about the gunman’s religion. I read early on that his family was also Lutheran (though no one said which confession) but didn’t learn about his own religious views.
June 8, 2009, at 2:04 pm
Mollie,
Fair enough. But if, as you say, “I figured you didn’t know he was excommunicated,” then why not pick up the phone and call us to let us know? Something like, “Hey, there’s a really interesting story here that you might not know about that no one else has picked up on?” If you (as a member of the LCMS) think this is an important angle for religion reporters to know about, and your own church isn’t talking about it, why not spread the word yourself?
Perhaps it’s just easier to stay silent and then criticize reporters for something they didn’t know?
If you had tried to get the story out, and it was ignored by the MSM, then your criticisms might carry more weight. Otherwise it just seems like needless nitpicking.
June 8, 2009, at 2:28 pm
I’ve noticed a tendency in news reports that cover issues and events that involve the ELCA to refer to them as “the” Lutheran church. Admittedly this is anecdotal, but does anyone know if this is do to a lack of knowledge about the various Lutheran bodies, or is there a tendency among the ELCA leadership to present themselves as the sole Lutheran body?
June 8, 2009, at 3:19 pm
Documentation:
http://concordia.typepad.com/vocation/2008/10/remembering-col.html
Uwe Siemon-Netto of the Center for Lutheran Theology and Public Life states:
Why do I, an accountant living in Los Angeles, have to do the MSM and the religionbeat reporters’ work for them? This took about 3 minutes of googling. The article is dated Oct 11, 2008; so it is not a product of the current controversy.
June 8, 2009, at 3:53 pm
Mark, for the record I’m against the death penalty, and I do find it absurd that doctors should be involved. The only palliative there is that presumably it is to prevent unnecessary suffering (“cruel and unusual punishment”).
I also think the charge into war in Iraq was a damn fool idea. However, please back up the “baby-killing soldiers” remark; what, is this like the barbarian Hun spearing babies on bayonets in the First World War?
And I think Chris has a point about what Kevin said: had Dr. Tiller been, oh, a Roman Catholic, do you think any reporter would have said “Nah, we don’t care what church he attended”?
I realise that the media can’t be expected to know that, if he was a member of an ELCA congregation, he had previously been LCMS and that he had left through excommunication rather than typical American church-hopping, but on the other hand, this kind of background isn’t exactly Top Ultra Secret information, is it?
June 8, 2009, at 4:59 pm
Holy Cross Lutheran LCMS has a website:
http://holycrosslutheran.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
I can find no mention of Dr Tiller there. From the information, this is a very active congregation. There are all sorts of activities and meetings. But silence on Dr Tiller.
June 8, 2009, at 5:01 pm
Will 47, I would actually agree with you. I don’t mean to make it a blanket statement. Tiller’s acceptance in the ELCA is simply not an extreme oddity. I know several PCUSA churches that don’t affirm the homosexual lifestyle, but a gernalization I don’t believe one should be surprised to hear at member of the PCUSA validating the LGBTQ lifestyle. It is perhaps an issue of the broad theological stances of both the ELCA and PCUSA.
My main point is that it is more complex than Tiller was a church goer, he was a church goer in a particular denomination that generally - not holistically - is more accepting of his views. It would be wrong to stereotype an individual or church that is a member of the ELCA or PCUSA as having certain values. I apologize if that was how my comment was taken.
June 8, 2009, at 5:47 pm
Contact for Holy Cross, Wichita (Tiller’s reportedly former congregation) is:
Holy Cross Lutheran Church
600 N Greenwich Rd
Wichita, KS 67206-2633
Phone: (316)684-5201
FAX: (316)684-2847
E-mail: office@holycrosslutheran.net
Web Site: http://www.holycrosslutheran.net
Baptized Members: 2076
Confirmed Members: 1566
Related School(s):
Holy Cross Lutheran School
Pastor(s):
Rev Daniel Myers
June 8, 2009, at 5:58 pm
Ah, yes. Shallow and wide-brush coverage aimed at providing a biased and slanted view of your church. We Catholics are used to it.
June 8, 2009, at 6:01 pm
According to an August 2000 obituary in “The Topeka Capitol-Journal” (available at cjonline), Scott Roeder’s father was a Methodist minister.
When Tiller was killed, Scott Roeder’s uncle, Clarence (brother of the Methodist minister), told “The Kansas City Star” that the family is Lutheran.
Was Clarence Roeder being accurate; if so when was the switch? If not, was this an attempt at mitigating the impact on the family? Or do the facts lie somewhere in between?
June 8, 2009, at 7:13 pm
The angle that seems to be missing is ‘money’.
mr. Tiller kept himself in business by ‘greasing the palms’ of both the religious and the political establishment.
He was kind of like the ‘golden boy’ star athlete who’s bad behavior could not be allowed to disqualify himself from membership on the team.
It would be interesting to see who received more of Tiller’s financila support, deomcrats or the congregation where he ushered.
Where a person invests his treasure is a pretty reliable indicator of where his heart is. [Jesus said some something like that.]
The other thing that has to be highlighted is how rare ‘excomunication/disfellowshiping’ is in christendom today.
Reminds me of a story from Seattle, Washington several years ago where a lady priest (Episcopal I believe) was being ‘examined’. The priestess had been to the Jayzee Night school of theology and was instructing her congregants in the art and craft of ‘channeling’ spirits. The regional denominational hierarchy had reservations about her ‘loyalty’ to the scriptures. I never did hear what conclusions where reached or actions were taken, if any.
mr. Tillers ‘deathlihood’ was not hard to determine. You just had to visit HIS website or call and talk to his sales staff.
What do you have to do to be ‘excomunicated’ from the Evangelical Luthern Church of America?
Admit to listening to Rush Limbaugh or publicly declare that you believe in the ‘inerrancy’ of Scripture?
yor bro ken
June 8, 2009, at 8:02 pm
I’m pretty uncomfortable with this whole subject. It is heartening to know that Tiller was excommunicated from the LCMS, It’s also very tragic that he was allowed communicant membership in any other Lutheran body. However, as witnessed in these comments, publishing these facts, especially now that he stands before his Maker, does not do any good. There is no doubt that his excommunication now becomes a sensation rather than a cause for sadness and weeping. And we ought not to be prideful because he was excommunicated, yet it seems some of us are. Furthermore, the record of the ELCA speaks for itself. I can’t see how this information is really very helpful—it seems to have been harmful.
June 8, 2009, at 8:32 pm
Late-Term Abortionist, ‘Faithful Lutheran’ Martyr Like MLK?
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2009/06/08/late-term-abortionist-faithful-lutheran-martyr-mlk
June 8, 2009, at 9:32 pm
Robert Franck writes (16):
But that’s EXACTLY why reporters need to “get religion” for us, and help the rest of us understand it in this case and in other denominations, when it’s part of the story.
June 8, 2009, at 9:53 pm
Mollie, Even Christian reporters sometimes fail to get Lutheran religion. I was listening to an American Family Association program on Christian talk radio mid-week last week (four days after the shooting), and I heard it said that Tiller was ushering at “…a Reformed Lutheran Church.”
June 8, 2009, at 11:08 pm
We were members of Holy Cross Lutheran in Wichita, with our older daughter attending school there, until we moved to the Kansas City area in the early 1990’s. No mention of Tiller’s excommunication was made to us; however, my husband’s family were members of a sister LCMS congregation in Wichita, and my husband was certainly aware of his excommunication when it occurred. It happened sometime in the early-mid 1970’s.
As an LCMS Lutheran, I too am frustrated that we are being painted with that ‘broad brush.’ Of course the media will not mention Tiller’s excommunication; that would taint his saintly image.
June 9, 2009, at 12:25 am
Dalea,
Your most recent comments claiming that the LCMS excommunicates people for being battered wives, etc., are untrue, unsourced and completely off topic.
Please keep your comments focused on the purpose of this blog which is to discuss media coverage of religious issues.
Thanks.
June 9, 2009, at 2:19 am
kbhvac, That would have been the late Laura Fraser. In 1986 she was induced to renounce her orders when the Diocese of Olympia gave her a full disability pension (She wore a hearing aid, and had for years). It got rid of her, and saved them from having to discuss theology in an ecclesiastical court. It also left the with the precedent that a person *can* be a layman and be into “channeling”, tho not a cleric. Similarly, Ann Redding is a Muslim and an Episcopalian layman. Same diocese. Ann hasn’t got her golden parachute yet, but give her time. Nothing on earth however weird can get you excommunicated as an Anglican.
It is good to hear (I never heard it before) that the LCMS has such sense, integrity and *compassion* to excommunicate an abortionist. I too had wondered what on earth kind of church had this guy as a layman. It’s the compassionate nature of excommunication that completely escapes most people. It’s saying that communion would do more harm to the person than good, and that the person is loved by God and his fellow believers, who don’t want him to harm himself. It’s supposed to get your attention that it’s time to repent of something serious. Don’t expect the press to understand that or report on it.
June 9, 2009, at 2:41 am
OK Mollie. This is something I had experienced first hand several times. What about my comments that the LCMS excommunicates GL people?
My undergraduate years were in St Louis, where the Lutheran Student Center was staffed out of Concordia Seminary. I can still remember the respect and kindness Dr Piepkorn showed those of us who came from the Skandanavian churches. The other clergy were equally open to us, Dr Doefner in particular. About a decade later, the LCMS entered into a doctrinal battle that resulted in the expulsion of all the LCMS clergy I had come to respect and admire. This cemented my decision to leave Christianity.
June 9, 2009, at 7:14 am
[…] was not reported is that Tiller was actually excommunicated from a Lutheran congregation years ago due to his abortion practice. So how was he able to be an usher at another Lutheran […]
June 9, 2009, at 9:42 am
Mollie:
dalea’s recollections of gay/feminist press coverage go back to the 70s, 80s and early 90s. It’s not reasonable to demand links to articles from that period.
His first post of that set was about the media, noting that the MSM did not cover excommunications reported in the gay/feminist press.
Setting up your certitude that it can’t be true against his firm recollections that it was true, is not the strongest rebuttal you could make, since he is referring to specifics and you are making a blanket statement without knowing the specifics.
June 9, 2009, at 10:14 am
dalea’s outlandish comments, including that the LCMS excommunicated women for the sin of being beaten, were riddled with basic errors — they said things about Lutheran excommunication that just aren’t true. They showed no understanding of the congregational process of excommunication, what one can be excommunicated for and the secrecy of the confessional.
That, combined with the lack of sourcing and the failure to be relevant to the topic at hand — media coverage of Tiller’s murder — were why I deleted them.
June 9, 2009, at 10:28 am
One of those times you’d like to scream at the TV was when I saw the news coverage supposedly interviewing fellow church members of Tiller. In each case it seemed, the person being interviewed stated that while they didn’t agree with what Tiller did, they were very sorry for what had happened. My problem with that is, IF you’re a member of a congregation that supports membership of someone that you feel deals in infanticide, why do you stay a member of that congregation?
Is it because you like the Pastors sermons? Is it because the pews are so comfy? Why would you trust your faith in Our Lord to a congregation whose membership policy you didn’t agree with?
June 9, 2009, at 5:09 pm
Seems to me that what offends one church (and causes excommunication) may understandably be honored by another: just as with individuals, while one church would view him as a baby killer, another sees as him acting in a morally courageous — dare I say, Christian? — way: being one of the few souls willing to help women who are desperate, in need of help, perhaps in danger. So while it doesn’t matter to me that we didn’t know he had been thrown out of another church for the general story, it does make for a compelling other angle, of how churches have different views. Just like people.
June 9, 2009, at 5:20 pm
[…] how it is resonating with the “Abortion is a blessing” crowd. Also, a Lutheran explains Tiller’s church connections in ways that have not previously been spelled out, to my knowledge. I found it very interesting. I […]
June 9, 2009, at 6:05 pm
Not only that, but the PECUSA (not the right-PC “TEC”) Constitution defines “members” as “all persons baptized by this church.” I can not even QUIT.
Will (I can’t even get excommunicated in this town.)
June 9, 2009, at 11:00 pm
There are two reasons why the actions of LCMS church weren’t mentioned in the news, and they have nothing to do with some supposed ignorance of Christianity.
1. Including such news could be seen as trying to take sides with one of the churches. That’s fine for a person to do (as we are seeing on this thread), but not for most news organizations (of course news organizations affiliated with religious organizations are different).
2. The LCMS church dis-fellowshipping him is not even newsworthy. A news article about a murder victim does not need to include every aspect of that person’s religious life.
June 10, 2009, at 12:50 am
I suspect that, if the mainstream media had known that the LCMS had excommunicated Dr. Tiller, they would have made a lot out of it. The mainstream media love to cover the Christian right, and the LCMS is close enough that the media probably couldn’t tell the difference. They generally ignore the mainline churches, which may explain why a lot of people were probably surprised that a Christian church welcomed a doctor who performed abortions.
June 10, 2009, at 11:45 am
Calling one a “Lutheran” does not make one a Lutheran. Calling a church body “Lutheran” does not make it Lutheran. This applies directly to the Tiller case. Neither Tiller or The ELCA are Lutheran - in name yes, they are “Lutheran” but neither of them are “Lutheran” in doctrine or practice. Lutherans are pro life and don’t make a living killing unborn babies.
June 10, 2009, at 3:07 pm
My late friend Janet Bettin Curb told me the story I related. She did not go into the minutae of how it was done, she simply told me about her role in it. This does not accord with the procedure, it is a part of her life.
My point was to resond to the issue that Dr Tiller’s excommunication had no press coverage. Several people had argued that excommunications are just not newsworthy, and hence are not covered. My response was that the Feminist and Gay press do have a long record of covering this subject. They may not comprehend the nuts and bolts of the process, but they do present the end result.
June 10, 2009, at 3:30 pm
[…] UPDATE 6/10 George Tiller was a Missouri Synod Lutheran. That’s “was” as in “before they excommunicated him.” […]
June 10, 2009, at 6:10 pm
[…] Mollie, over at the GetReligion blog, says Dr. George Tiller, the abortion Martin Luther credit:The Klines […]
June 12, 2009, at 12:45 am
Fehrmann,
You are 100% wrong. You’re using the incredibly stupid “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
And you are also threadjacking.
June 13, 2009, at 1:17 am
Good point, Ben F, but at least Fehrmann’s comment didn’t go as far as the usual “no true Christian” fallacy.
As a Christian who’s not a Lutheran, I probably should be as offended on behalf of my Lutheran sisters and brother as if I was.
June 15, 2009, at 8:20 pm
I have attended Holy Cross Lutheran Church since 1980 and never knew that George Tiller had ever attended our church. Today I was at a meeting at the church and inquired about Tiller’s supposed “excommunication.” A staff member said that if Tiller had been excommunicated, and it was his understanding that this did NOT happen, it would have been considered a private matter. The church body was definitely not involved. The staff member told me he thought it was a “mutual” decision for Tiller and our church to part ways.
June 15, 2009, at 8:47 pm
Susan M
I decided to look into the story myself. While it had been reported, repeatedly, that Tiller had been excommunicated (see here, for instance), my reporting indicates that he left while under church discipline but prior to the excommunication. I also have sources saying, however, that Tiller claimed to have been excommunicated. I have had a bunch of conflicting reports, frankly, but that’s the nearest I can tell — he was under church discipline, he may have told people he was excommunicated, but he actually left fellowship prior to being excommunicated.
I’ll update if I find out more information.
And this was in the 1970s — that was the other thing I was able to confirm.
June 16, 2009, at 12:07 am
Part of the confusion between these two church bodies is their views of the Bible and God’s word which fundamentally caused the split from one another some years ago. The ELCA does not believe the bible is necessarily true and has believe standards that are more mainline. The LCMS is more orthodox in it’s believe and acknowledges the the bible as basically true. Hence their views on abortion. The LCMS recognizes the bible as stating life begins at conception whereas the ELCA does not recognize the bible as authoritative in when life begins.
It exemplifies a Christian decision in which one man can be a murder to some and a saint to others.
Note that the LCMS through excommunication requires that they continually make an effort to bring the person back through faith and repentance to find God’s Grace, Mercy, and forgiveness, rather than judgment.
June 16, 2009, at 5:40 pm
Thank you Mollie for an exceptional post.
June 25, 2009, at 1:21 am
ECLA pretty much as shown by the Tiller case is not Lutheran. Not just on the moral issues. But as others pointed out, also on the issue of inerrancy of Scriptures. Not to mention, its departure on the views of communion. As well as its signing the Joint Declaration on justification. It departs in so many areas from how Lutheranism is defined. So the poster is correct to say ECLA hardly is Lutheran, but only in name.
Good post, Mollie. I am glad LCMS (which I used to be part of) took a stand on abortion (I am WELS now).
July 5, 2009, at 3:11 pm
Martin wrote: “Part of the confusion between these two church bodies is their views of the Bible and God’s word which fundamentally caused the split from one another some years ago. The ELCA does not believe the bible is necessarily true and has believe standards that are more mainline. The LCMS is more orthodox in it’s believe and acknowledges the the bible as basically true. Hence their views on abortion.”
I can’t speak for either ELCA or LCMS, not being a member of either, but I can say that, in Christian churches in general, there is no disagreement over the truth of the Bible. Most of us hold it to be true. The disagreement is over whether “truth” means: (1)literal factual truth; (2) metaphorical truth; or (3) both. #1 is no more orthodox than #2 or #3, being - like modern atheism - a product of the Enlightenment. The best exploration of these difference I’ve found is “The Heart of Christianity” by Marcus Borg.
Personally, I find #1, the literal-factual interpretation, to be trivial and entirely untrue, except for the parts of the Bible that are accurate accounts of historical events. #3 is somewhat true because, like #2, it allows the Spirit to speak to the believer, though I wouldn’t want to entrust my life to a doctor who thinks that it’s literally factually true that my body is made out of mud and he can bring it back to life after he lets it die.