Comments on: ‘60 Minutes’ visits a persecuted patriarch http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch "The press . . . just doesn't get religion." -- William Schneider Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:04:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Misha http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-158070 Misha Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:49:12 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-158070 The Ancient Holy Sees and their dwindling flocks is indeed a sad event. This is due to the intolence of the Turkish populace. Yes, one bishop one vote. This is the concilliar nature of the church. This is properly "catholic" as the church has been concilliar since the beginning. To quote Timothy (Kallistos)Ware, "The four ancient Patriarchates: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. As discussed here, though greatly reduced in size, these four Churches for historical reasons occupy a special position in the Orthodox Church, and rank first in honor. The heads of these four Churches bear the title Patriarch. There are eleven other autocephalous Churches: Russia, Romania, Serbia (in Yugoslavia), Bulgaria, Georgia, Cyprus, Poland, Albania, Czechoslovakia and Sinai. All except three of these Churches — Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Albania — are in countries where the Christian population is entirely or predominantly Orthodox. The Churches of Greece, Cyprus, and Sinai are Greek; five of the others — Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Poland — are Slavonic. The heads of the Russian, Romanian, Serbian, and Bulgarian Churches are known by the title Patriarch; the head of the Georgian Church is called Catholicos-Patriarch; the heads of the other churches are called either Archbishop or Metropolitan. There are in addition several Churches which, while self-governing in most respects, have not yet attained full independence. These are termed "autonomous" but not "autocephalous": Finland, Japan and China. There are ecclesiastical provinces in western Europe, in North and South America, and in Australia, which depend on the different Patriarchates and autocephalous Churches. In some areas this Orthodox "diaspora" is slowly achieving self-government. In particular, steps have been taken to form an autocephalous Orthodox Church in America, but this has not yet been officially recognized by the majority of other Orthodox Churches. Among the various Churches there is, as can be seen, an enormous variation in size, with Russia at one extreme and Sinai at the other. The different Churches also vary in age, some dating back to Apostolic times, while others are less than a generation old. The Church of Czechoslovakia, for example, only became autocephalous in 1951. Such are the Churches which make up the Orthodox communion as it is today." Today in the US the Antiochan Church in America is growing by leaps and bounds. These churches are filled to the brim with converts from the Roman Catholicism and every stripe of Protestantism. Non Orthodox visitors in regular attendance. Saying that the actual living churches are in Russia, Greece and the west without mentioning what is said above is grossly inacurate. The Ancient Holy Sees and their dwindling flocks is indeed a sad event. This is due to the intolence of the Turkish populace. Yes, one bishop one vote. This is the concilliar nature of the church. This is properly “catholic” as the church has been concilliar since the beginning. To quote Timothy (Kallistos)Ware, “The four ancient Patriarchates: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. As discussed here, though greatly reduced in size, these four Churches for historical reasons occupy a special position in the Orthodox Church, and rank first in honor. The heads of these four Churches bear the title Patriarch. There are eleven other autocephalous Churches: Russia, Romania, Serbia (in Yugoslavia), Bulgaria, Georgia, Cyprus, Poland, Albania, Czechoslovakia and Sinai. All except three of these Churches — Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Albania — are in countries where the Christian population is entirely or predominantly Orthodox. The Churches of Greece, Cyprus, and Sinai are Greek; five of the others — Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Poland — are Slavonic. The heads of the Russian, Romanian, Serbian, and Bulgarian Churches are known by the title Patriarch; the head of the Georgian Church is called Catholicos-Patriarch; the heads of the other churches are called either Archbishop or Metropolitan. There are in addition several Churches which, while self-governing in most respects, have not yet attained full independence. These are termed “autonomous” but not “autocephalous”: Finland, Japan and China. There are ecclesiastical provinces in western Europe, in North and South America, and in Australia, which depend on the different Patriarchates and autocephalous Churches. In some areas this Orthodox “diaspora” is slowly achieving self-government. In particular, steps have been taken to form an autocephalous Orthodox Church in America, but this has not yet been officially recognized by the majority of other Orthodox Churches. Among the various Churches there is, as can be seen, an enormous variation in size, with Russia at one extreme and Sinai at the other. The different Churches also vary in age, some dating back to Apostolic times, while others are less than a generation old. The Church of Czechoslovakia, for example, only became autocephalous in 1951. Such are the Churches which make up the Orthodox communion as it is today.”

Today in the US the Antiochan Church in America is growing by leaps and bounds. These churches are filled to the brim with converts from the Roman Catholicism and every stripe of Protestantism. Non Orthodox visitors in regular attendance.

Saying that the actual living churches are in Russia, Greece and the west without mentioning what is said above
is grossly inacurate.

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]]> By: bob http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157911 bob Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:36:16 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157911 The difficulty the Press has in reporting on Orthodox Church matters is to get on to the idea that a bishop is a bishop to Orthodox. To Roman Catholics a short way of putting it is that there is exactly one bishop, of the Diocese Of Earth. The Orthodox urgently remind people that at an "Ecumenical Council" every bishop has one vote no matter how great or small the flock. There is one vote, period, to Roman Catholics. Having talked about the Patriarch in Istanbul, the Press hasn't done a story about more than one (dwindling) flock and its former status as a great big flock, though the bishop there continues to wear the uniform of his predecessors. Do one next week about any other ancient city that once had a big Christian presence but has been overrun by Muslims (Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Smyrna, Ephesus) and you get the rest of the pathetic history of Eastern Christendom in the east. The ancient sees are popular sentimental ornaments for the Orthodox. They are our pyramids. The actual living churches are in Russia, Greece and the west. The difficulty the Press has in reporting on Orthodox Church matters is to get on to the idea that a bishop is a bishop to Orthodox. To Roman Catholics a short way of putting it is that there is exactly one bishop, of the Diocese Of Earth. The Orthodox urgently remind people that at an “Ecumenical Council” every bishop has one vote no matter how great or small the flock. There is one vote, period, to Roman Catholics.
Having talked about the Patriarch in Istanbul, the Press hasn’t done a story about more than one (dwindling) flock and its former status as a great big flock, though the bishop there continues to wear the uniform of his predecessors. Do one next week about any other ancient city that once had a big Christian presence but has been overrun by Muslims (Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Smyrna, Ephesus) and you get the rest of the pathetic history of Eastern Christendom in the east. The ancient sees are popular sentimental ornaments for the Orthodox. They are our pyramids. The actual living churches are in Russia, Greece and the west.

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]]> By: Misha http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157847 Misha Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:06:03 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157847 If the bishop of Rome returned his Roman Church back to the Orthodox fold he would have the position of "Ecumenical Patriarch" now held by the Patriarch of Constantinople. The bishop of Rome would be "first amongst equals". This is a position of honor, not of power or jurisdiction. In simple terms all of our patriarchal bishops are equal to the pope. I am under the Patriarch of Moscow. I respect and honor His Holiness Bartholemew but he is not my patriarch. I only have to abide by what my patriarch tells me to do. If the bishop of Rome returned his Roman Church back to the Orthodox fold he would have the position of “Ecumenical Patriarch” now held by the Patriarch of Constantinople. The bishop of Rome would be “first amongst equals”. This is a position of honor, not of power or jurisdiction. In simple terms all of our patriarchal bishops are equal to the pope.
I am under the Patriarch of Moscow. I respect and honor His Holiness Bartholemew but he is not my patriarch. I only have to abide by what my patriarch tells me to do.

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]]> By: Carl Vehse http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157799 Carl Vehse Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:04:39 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157799 <i>Stick to the journalism issues, people.</i> Well, that certainly cuts out discussing anything about Bob Simon and 60 Minutes. Stick to the journalism issues, people.

Well, that certainly cuts out discussing anything about Bob Simon and 60 Minutes.

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]]> By: gilad http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157792 gilad Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:10:44 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157792 Who is among "Equal" with the Pope? The various Patriarchal See's? Are they still functional and communicating? ex. Coptic, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Bulgaria, Serbia, Russian, Greek, who speaks for these Orthodox and why don't we hear from them or at least be a voice with the Pope! Growing up my mom would always sign herself when she passed a Catholic Church, and then she would look at me and say Jesus is there, i am much older now and make the same gesture when passing not only a Catholic Church but also any Orthodox Church that i know of, as my mom would say "Jesus is there"! Blessed Christ-mas to All! Who is among “Equal” with the Pope? The various Patriarchal See’s? Are they still functional and communicating? ex. Coptic, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Bulgaria, Serbia, Russian, Greek, who speaks for these Orthodox and why don’t we hear from them or at least be a voice with the Pope! Growing up my mom would always sign herself when she passed a Catholic Church, and then she would look at me and say Jesus is there, i am much older now and make the same gesture when passing not only a Catholic Church but also any Orthodox Church that i know of, as my mom would say “Jesus is there”! Blessed Christ-mas to All!

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]]> By: Brian http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157781 Brian Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:41:13 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157781 If they are not allowed to run their school, that is indeed persecution. If they are not allowed to run their school, that is indeed persecution.

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]]> By: Deacon John M. Bresnahan http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157770 Deacon John M. Bresnahan Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:02:15 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157770 Here it comes---some Catholic internet sites are reporting that the Turkish government is furious at some of the truthful things Patriarch Bartholomew said on 60 Minutes about the persecution of Christians in Turkey, especially his comment about feeling crucified there. What comes next???? Here it comes—-some Catholic internet sites are reporting that the Turkish government is furious at some of the truthful things Patriarch Bartholomew said on 60 Minutes about the persecution of Christians in Turkey, especially his comment about feeling crucified there.
What comes next????

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]]> By: Deacon John M. Bresnahan http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157769 Deacon John M. Bresnahan Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:32:32 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157769 Oh those Christmas and Easter specials -as bob pointed out-- on the MSM, the History Channel, and Discovery. They interview the most off-the-wall historians and unorthodox religious professors and writers possible--then treat their inane, inaccurate, fraudulent rantings as Gospel Truth. In both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, the official teachers of Gospel Truth are the bishops (or, in the Catholic Faith, the bishops in communion with Rome). Someday I would like to see bishops interviewed and treated with the same reverence shown to sensation mongers and professional media "iconoclasts" with regard to Christian beliefs. Oh those Christmas and Easter specials -as bob pointed out— on the MSM, the History Channel, and Discovery. They interview the most off-the-wall historians and unorthodox religious professors and writers possible—then treat their inane, inaccurate, fraudulent rantings as Gospel Truth.
In both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, the official teachers of Gospel Truth are the bishops (or, in the Catholic Faith, the bishops in communion with Rome).
Someday I would like to see bishops interviewed and treated with the same reverence shown to sensation mongers and professional media “iconoclasts” with regard to Christian beliefs.

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]]> By: Patrick Henry Reardon http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157766 Patrick Henry Reardon Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:34:41 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157766 Gilad suggests a solution for our ecumenical problem: "I mean meet at a starbucks and have a christian conversation and put all the politics and rubish aside!" That could make things worse, you know. There was a fire at a certain large brewery in Dublin earlier today, sowe may have to stick with Starbucks, after all. Gilad suggests a solution for our ecumenical problem:

“I mean meet at a starbucks and have a christian conversation and put all the politics and rubish aside!”

That could make things worse, you know.

There was a fire at a certain large brewery in Dublin earlier today, sowe may have to stick with Starbucks, after all.

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]]> By: Alyssa Sophia http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157753 Alyssa Sophia Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:43:19 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157753 What was good in the report? 1. A major news program actually went to the Phanar (which the majority of people in the U.S. have never heard of. 2. Given that we Orthodox are NOT a protestant denomination, I was fine with the comparison to Rome, Vatican City, the Pope's office...it was quite eye-opening, especially when one considers how beautiful/elaborately decorated our churches are and how humbly the E.P. lives. I think that, despite the obvious & valid frustration with likening him to the Pope, it is an easier comparison for most people I know than to be compared to Anglicans. 3. What? Christians have been and are being forced out of a Muslim country even while Muslims are being forbidden from building minarets in Sweden? Who knew? Thank you, CBS, for opening our eyes to the injustice taking place in Turkey against Orthodox Christians! 4. Did we catch a glimpse of the fact that the Turkish secular government has closed a seminary and put restrictions on the purely Christian religious tradition of training priests, monks, future bishops, AND who is allowed to succeed His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew when the time comes? Not fully, but yes, CBS gave us that glimpse. 5. Did we actually get to see the edict by the Prophet Mohammed with HIS signature, housed at St. Catherine's Monastery, granting protection and peaceful cohabitation with Orthodox Christians? I saw it for the first time. 6. Did CBS allow His All Holiness to speak boldly and bravely to millions of viewers about his plight, and the plight of Orthodox Christians and their institutions in Turkey, <i>in his own words</i>? Sure seemed that way to me. All in all, despite some of the bad reporting, I really enjoyed this segment, and am recommending it to everyone I know. And may God help and protect the Orthodox Christian in Turkey right now, in the aftermath of this CBS story. What was good in the report?

1. A major news program actually went to the Phanar (which the majority of people in the U.S. have never heard of.

2. Given that we Orthodox are NOT a protestant denomination, I was fine with the comparison to Rome, Vatican City, the Pope’s office…it was quite eye-opening, especially when one considers how beautiful/elaborately decorated our churches are and how humbly the E.P. lives. I think that, despite the obvious & valid frustration with likening him to the Pope, it is an easier comparison for most people I know than to be compared to Anglicans.

3. What? Christians have been and are being forced out of a Muslim country even while Muslims are being forbidden from building minarets in Sweden? Who knew? Thank you, CBS, for opening our eyes to the injustice taking place in Turkey against Orthodox Christians!

4. Did we catch a glimpse of the fact that the Turkish secular government has closed a seminary and put restrictions on the purely Christian religious tradition of training priests, monks, future bishops, AND who is allowed to succeed His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew when the time comes? Not fully, but yes, CBS gave us that glimpse.

5. Did we actually get to see the edict by the Prophet Mohammed with HIS signature, housed at St. Catherine’s Monastery, granting protection and peaceful cohabitation with Orthodox Christians? I saw it for the first time.

6. Did CBS allow His All Holiness to speak boldly and bravely to millions of viewers about his plight, and the plight of Orthodox Christians and their institutions in Turkey, in his own words? Sure seemed that way to me.

All in all, despite some of the bad reporting, I really enjoyed this segment, and am recommending it to everyone I know. And may God help and protect the Orthodox Christian in Turkey right now, in the aftermath of this CBS story.

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]]> By: bob http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157740 bob Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:51:11 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157740 I think the topic was how the press dosen't get religion. Every year there are the two great feasts of journalistic ignorance, otherwise known as Christmas ("What Really happened at Christmas?") and Easter ("What Really Happened at Easter?"). The feasts are steeped in tradition. They have never changing recitation of the same tired drivel from one year to the next, the same attempts to find something hidden for centuries but ONLY NOW being brought to light by this year's crack team of writers. A snipe hunt twice a year. It's boring to watch but it does make one take a sober look at journalism in general. It's easy to imagine how many spectacular blunders the press makes on every other subject there is. If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything's a nail, right? If the only religious framework you have (And a pretty lame idea of it at that) is Roman Catholicism, everything is a Vatican, right? The journalists are just as well informed about Christianity east of Italy as the Crusaders were. I think the topic was how the press dosen’t get religion. Every year there are the two great feasts of journalistic ignorance, otherwise known as Christmas (“What Really happened at Christmas?”) and Easter (“What Really Happened at Easter?”). The feasts are steeped in tradition. They have never changing recitation of the same tired drivel from one year to the next, the same attempts to find something hidden for centuries but ONLY NOW being brought to light by this year’s crack team of writers. A snipe hunt twice a year. It’s boring to watch but it does make one take a sober look at journalism in general. It’s easy to imagine how many spectacular blunders the press makes on every other subject there is. If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything’s a nail, right? If the only religious framework you have (And a pretty lame idea of it at that) is Roman Catholicism, everything is a Vatican, right? The journalists are just as well informed about Christianity east of Italy as the Crusaders were.

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]]> By: Julia http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157734 Julia Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:13:40 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157734 <blockquote cite="">did <b>Bob Abernathy </b>not understand </blockquote> Sorry for a second mistake I just noticed. Bob Abernathy would have been much better informed, I'm sure. Gotta wait longer to hit "submit comment".

did Bob Abernathy not understand

Sorry for a second mistake I just noticed. Bob Abernathy would have been much better informed, I’m sure.

Gotta wait longer to hit “submit comment”.

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]]> By: tmatt http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157723 tmatt Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:39:00 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157723 Still spiking away. Stick to the journalism issues, people. Still spiking away.

Stick to the journalism issues, people.

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]]> By: ecce homo http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157719 ecce homo Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:49:23 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157719 I think we all noticed the wrongs within the piece. The differences between East & West, everything from hesycasm to the filioque can be argued back and forth with both sides scoring points against the other. And this helps the problem how? I'm not sure this piece should be the catalyst for such discussions, there is a time and place for that and this isn't that time or place. The question that begs answering from a piece like this is what can be done to help stop the persecution? What can we in the West (and yes I am a latin) & East do to help the Patriarch, his Patriarcate and his flock? Don't we, via brotherhood in the cross, have a responsibility to help? Can anything be done? Naturally, we pray! Let's not lose ourselves in the purist arguments. Let's discuss solutions (if indeed there is one). I think we all noticed the wrongs within the piece. The differences between East & West, everything from hesycasm to the filioque can be argued back and forth with both sides scoring points against the other. And this helps the problem how? I’m not sure this piece should be the catalyst for such discussions, there is a time and place for that and this isn’t that time or place. The question that begs answering from a piece like this is what can be done to help stop the persecution? What can we in the West (and yes I am a latin) & East do to help the Patriarch, his Patriarcate and his flock? Don’t we, via brotherhood in the cross, have a responsibility to help? Can anything be done? Naturally, we pray! Let’s not lose ourselves in the purist arguments. Let’s discuss solutions (if indeed there is one).

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]]> By: Don http://www.getreligion.org/2009/12/60-minutes-visits-a-persecuted-patriarch/comment-page-1/#comment-157716 Don Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:28:27 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=23290#comment-157716 With religion reporting in the media, I think we all need to keep one thing in mind. Ask yourself "how accurately does the media report on and portray my faith?". Usually the answer is "not very well". Ergo, we should not expect media reporting on the Ecumenical Patriarch to be free of inaccuracies, and we should not use the news media as a source of reliable information on doctrines or histories of any religion or faith. As any good librarian will tell you, one needs to be information literate today more so than ever, and news reports, from an information literacy point of view, have never been looked upon as authoritative sources of information. A prime example is how the main stream media fails to properly explain papal infallibility - they don't understand that very, very few popes ever pronounce a new doctrine and that even then, those are done in consultation with the bishops. I've never seen that explained anywhere but in Catholic publications. With religion reporting in the media, I think we all need to keep one thing in mind. Ask yourself “how accurately does the media report on and portray my faith?”. Usually the answer is “not very well”. Ergo, we should not expect media reporting on the Ecumenical Patriarch to be free of inaccuracies, and we should not use the news media as a source of reliable information on doctrines or histories of any religion or faith.
As any good librarian will tell you, one needs to be information literate today more so than ever, and news reports, from an information literacy point of view, have never been looked upon as authoritative sources of information. A prime example is how the main stream media fails to properly explain papal infallibility - they don’t understand that very, very few popes ever pronounce a new doctrine and that even then, those are done in consultation with the bishops. I’ve never seen that explained anywhere but in Catholic publications.

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