Comments on: Pew Forum marches on (post No. 3,000) http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000 "The press . . . just doesn't get religion." -- William Schneider Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:04:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Religious Competition « Church Forward http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118176 Religious Competition « Church Forward Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:01:25 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118176 [...] There’s lots of discussion out there in Internet hinterland regarding this study. Other good dialogue on the issue can be found here and here. [...] […] There’s lots of discussion out there in Internet hinterland regarding this study. Other good dialogue on the issue can be found here and here. […]

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]]> By: C. Wingate http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118085 C. Wingate Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:52:41 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118085 One needs to look at the "children" number extremely carefully, because it reports only the number of children in the household. Therefore the "no children" number is heavily padded by people who haven't started and people whose children have left home. One needs to look at the “children” number extremely carefully, because it reports only the number of children in the household. Therefore the “no children” number is heavily padded by people who haven’t started and people whose children have left home.

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]]> By: Ann Rodgers http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118082 Ann Rodgers Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:09:52 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118082 I've finally recovered from a very long -- can't say how long due to union rules -- Pew Forum day without food. Amen to Julia regarding doing this earlier in the day, although I do realize that our West Coast colleagues had to be accomodated. I don't think anyone has noted that this is just the first installment of three reports from this survey. One of the issues that I have is that in Western Pennsylvania, mainline Protestants and evangelical Protestants are largely the same people. ALthough Pew didn't do a Zip Code breakdown, Pennsylvania would show up as much more evangelical than it does if they looked at evangelicals who belong to Episcopal, PCUSA, ELCA and United Methodist churches. When I spoke with John Green afterward, he told me that the next installment will in fact look at that. It will not only find out how many people in "liberal" denominations are evangelical -- but how many closet liberals there are in the Southern Baptist Convention. That could be fascinating. Regarding the person who asked how they determined which churches were evangelical and which were mainline, they looked at actual doctrinal statements -- such as how strongly each upheld biblical authority -- and I believe also considered alliances such as NCC versus NAE. "Mainline" is no longer the useful term it once was in the 1950s, when it described the largest, most influential Protestant bodies in the country, but it remains a polite code word for these theologically diverse churches. (I have no qualms about using it in Pittsburgh, where the mainline still is, in fact, the mainline). The Reformed tradition to which the PCA belongs certainly is a major mainstream tradition, but the PCA was, in fact, created by a split away from a "mainline" Presbyterian church. And, in all fairness, the the PCUSA may be hemhorraging members, but it still dwarfs all the breakaway groups (PCA, EPC, OPC etc) combined. I’ve finally recovered from a very long — can’t say how long due to union rules — Pew Forum day without food. Amen to Julia regarding doing this earlier in the day, although I do realize that our West Coast colleagues had to be accomodated.
I don’t think anyone has noted that this is just the first installment of three reports from this survey. One of the issues that I have is that in Western Pennsylvania, mainline Protestants and evangelical Protestants are largely the same people. ALthough Pew didn’t do a Zip Code breakdown, Pennsylvania would show up as much more evangelical than it does if they looked at evangelicals who belong to Episcopal, PCUSA, ELCA and United Methodist churches.
When I spoke with John Green afterward, he told me that the next installment will in fact look at that. It will not only find out how many people in “liberal” denominations are evangelical — but how many closet liberals there are in the Southern Baptist Convention. That could be fascinating.
Regarding the person who asked how they determined which churches were evangelical and which were mainline, they looked at actual doctrinal statements — such as how strongly each upheld biblical authority — and I believe also considered alliances such as NCC versus NAE. “Mainline” is no longer the useful term it once was in the 1950s, when it described the largest, most influential Protestant bodies in the country, but it remains a polite code word for these theologically diverse churches. (I have no qualms about using it in Pittsburgh, where the mainline still is, in fact, the mainline).
The Reformed tradition to which the PCA belongs certainly is a major mainstream tradition, but the PCA was, in fact, created by a split away from a “mainline” Presbyterian church. And, in all fairness, the the PCUSA may be hemhorraging members, but it still dwarfs all the breakaway groups (PCA, EPC, OPC etc) combined.

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]]> By: Midwest Christian Outreach: The Crux » Got Hard Questions? Don’t Ask! http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118068 Midwest Christian Outreach: The Crux » Got Hard Questions? Don’t Ask! Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:12:15 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118068 [...] On another front the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life came out with their Religious Landscape of the United States poll this week. Time Magazine called it America’s Unfaithful Faithful . The study shows a great deal of movement between religions and worldviews or what Pew called “churning.” One of the better commentaries on this was by tmatt at GetReligion.org titled Pew Forum marches on (post No. 3,000) . All of this actually ties together if you will bear with me a bit. [...] […] On another front the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life came out with their Religious Landscape of the United States poll this week. Time Magazine called it America’s Unfaithful Faithful . The study shows a great deal of movement between religions and worldviews or what Pew called “churning.” One of the better commentaries on this was by tmatt at GetReligion.org titled Pew Forum marches on (post No. 3,000) . All of this actually ties together if you will bear with me a bit. […]

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]]> By: Julia http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118052 Julia Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:40:11 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118052 <blockquote>I was able to do a separate blog on how 70% of all Buddhists are remaining childless - not a great way to pass on the faith to the next generation! </blockquote> If you look at the age of the Buddhists, most of them are probably not of parenting age yet. Same with the New Age folks. I would have liked to see a chart with age the determinant. Example: among those 18 - 29, what percentage are Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Wiccan, unaffiliated, etc.

I was able to do a separate blog on how 70% of all Buddhists are remaining childless - not a great way to pass on the faith to the next generation!

If you look at the age of the Buddhists, most of them are probably not of parenting age yet. Same with the New Age folks.

I would have liked to see a chart with age the determinant. Example: among those 18 - 29, what percentage are Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Wiccan, unaffiliated, etc.

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]]> By: Peggy http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118049 Peggy Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:20:21 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118049 tmatt, I haven't had a chance to check in, but I see your correction. Protestants are not minority yet, however. If the non-denominationals keep getting Catholics (and we get some immigration control!), Protestants as a whole may continue to make up the majority of Americans. Interestingly, in light of the report of immigrants replacing departing American Catholics, the motives of the USCCB favoring illegal immigration was debated at NRO's The Corner yesterday. [Now of course tributes to their founder Bill Buckley RIP, fill The Corner today.] tmatt,

I haven’t had a chance to check in, but I see your correction. Protestants are not minority yet, however. If the non-denominationals keep getting Catholics (and we get some immigration control!), Protestants as a whole may continue to make up the majority of Americans.

Interestingly, in light of the report of immigrants replacing departing American Catholics, the motives of the USCCB favoring illegal immigration was debated at NRO’s The Corner yesterday. [Now of course tributes to their founder Bill Buckley RIP, fill The Corner today.]

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]]> By: Dave http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118045 Dave Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:48:13 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118045 <blockquote>I notice, BTW, that the Pew survey counts (as usual) twice as many Anglicans as ECUSA does.</blockquote> It counts three times as many Unitarian Universalists as the UUA does. Evidently a lot of people identify with a denomination without bothering to join one of its churches. <blockquote>Would have liked something on Wicca, which is said to be growing a LOT - didn’t see that on their site.</blockquote> It's hard to parse a subgroup that's about the size of the intrinsic error of your survey.

I notice, BTW, that the Pew survey counts (as usual) twice as many Anglicans as ECUSA does.

It counts three times as many Unitarian Universalists as the UUA does. Evidently a lot of people identify with a denomination without bothering to join one of its churches.

Would have liked something on Wicca, which is said to be growing a LOT - didn’t see that on their site.

It’s hard to parse a subgroup that’s about the size of the intrinsic error of your survey.

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]]> By: Julia Duin http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118041 Julia Duin Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:41:52 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118041 GR writers: Here's a thought - next time a release comes out, grade the coverage on how much the writers stuck to the original press release or reworded things in a more understandable way. Several articles, I noticed, basically repeated Pew's wording although some of it wasn't making sense. "The US is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country," it said - altho at the same time, it said the Catholic Church was losing members by the ton! There was this inherent contradiction there from the get-go that I tried to straighten out in what I wrote. And in the telephone press conference, they did admit to stiffing Alaska and Hawaii - didn't say why. They cut off the press conference after 90 minutes, leaving some 20 of us still in line with multiple questions. Fortunately I was able to get one of the researchers on the line afterwards; am not sure all the other journos were able to. Note to Pew: Next time you have an info dump like this, break the news earlier in the day. In a way, the survey didn't have a whole lot that was new; we all knew the mainline is shrinking, the unaffiliated is gaining, Catholics are in big trouble without the immigrants and evangelicals are splintering. Would have liked something on Wicca, which is said to be growing a LOT - didn't see that on their site. Do look at some of the interesting factoids about each denomination on the site; I was able to do a separate blog on how 70% of all Buddhists are remaining childless - not a great way to pass on the faith to the next generation! GR writers: Here’s a thought - next time a release comes out, grade the coverage on how much the writers stuck to the original press release or reworded things in a more understandable way. Several articles, I noticed, basically repeated Pew’s wording although some of it wasn’t making sense. “The US is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country,” it said - altho at the same time, it said the Catholic Church was losing members by the ton! There was this inherent contradiction there from the get-go that I tried to straighten out in what I wrote.
And in the telephone press conference, they did admit to stiffing Alaska and Hawaii - didn’t say why. They cut off the press conference after 90 minutes, leaving some 20 of us still in line with multiple questions. Fortunately I was able to get one of the researchers on the line afterwards; am not sure all the other journos were able to. Note to Pew: Next time you have an info dump like this, break the news earlier in the day.
In a way, the survey didn’t have a whole lot that was new; we all knew the mainline is shrinking, the unaffiliated is gaining, Catholics are in big trouble without the immigrants and evangelicals are splintering. Would have liked something on Wicca, which is said to be growing a LOT - didn’t see that on their site. Do look at some of the interesting factoids about each denomination on the site; I was able to do a separate blog on how 70% of all Buddhists are remaining childless - not a great way to pass on the faith to the next generation!

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]]> By: Cathy Grossman http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118040 Cathy Grossman Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:38:49 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118040 Terry, I'm disappointed. Not because you left USA Today out of your round-up (boo hoo, no mention for me in GR and you missed our fabulous interactive map, too) because you missed the perfect opportunity to whack some sense into everyone about the missing context for the Pew study. Did you wonder why the story was promoted but not played on our front page? It's because I made clear to our bosses, though alas, not clear enough to readers, I fear, that this is NOT news. Yes, Pew spoke with 3,500. The American Religious Identification Survey spoke with 100,000 in 1990 and 50,000 in 2001. Yes, Pew found people switching and looked into who went where. So did ARIS 2001 in great depth. Yes, Pew found that many who have no religious identity still have religious ties -- so did Baylor and Lifeway Christian (smaller survey). Pew has indeed created the newest map of American religion, found higher peaks, lower valleys, faster change -- but it didn't exactly unearth a here-to-fore-unknown Grand Canyon or Mt. Washington. The Pew folks hammered their self-praise for their work endlessly and tied the media hands so that no one would have enough space or time to point out in the most noticed rush of stories, that they had nothing terribly new to say. You, I always expect to have something new to say. Terry, I’m disappointed. Not because you left USA Today out of your round-up (boo hoo, no mention for me in GR and you missed our fabulous interactive map, too) because you missed the perfect opportunity to whack some sense into everyone about the missing context for the Pew study.
Did you wonder why the story was promoted but not played on our front page? It’s because I made clear to our bosses, though alas, not clear enough to readers, I fear, that this is NOT news.
Yes, Pew spoke with 3,500. The American Religious Identification Survey spoke with 100,000 in 1990 and 50,000 in 2001. Yes, Pew found people switching and looked into who went where. So did ARIS 2001 in great depth. Yes, Pew found that many who have no religious identity still have religious ties — so did Baylor and Lifeway Christian (smaller survey).
Pew has indeed created the newest map of American religion, found higher peaks, lower valleys, faster change — but it didn’t exactly unearth a here-to-fore-unknown Grand Canyon or Mt. Washington.
The Pew folks hammered their self-praise for their work endlessly and tied the media hands so that no one would have enough space or time to point out in the most noticed rush of stories, that they had nothing terribly new to say.
You, I always expect to have something new to say.

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]]> By: Matt http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118039 Matt Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:16:52 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118039 <a href="http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report-religious-landscape-study-appendix2.pdf" rel="nofollow">This appendix</a> gives the details of Pew's Evangelical/Mainline classification scheme, but does not explain <em>why</em> the different denominations were pigeon-holed in this way. This appendix gives the details of Pew’s Evangelical/Mainline classification scheme, but does not explain why the different denominations were pigeon-holed in this way.

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]]> By: Matt http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118038 Matt Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:05:05 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118038 What exactly do they mean by "mainline"? I would have thought that "mainline" would refer to all of the historic denominational traditions (Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc) without regard to theology, but it seems that Pew is instead identifying "evangelical" as conservative and "mainline" as liberal. As a member of the Presbyterian Church in America, I immediately checked <a href="http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/affiliations-all-traditions.pdf" rel="nofollow">the chart</a> for my denomination, and was surprised to find it classified as "evangelical" rather than "mainline". PCA has a conservative theological orientation ("confessional" is a good term) but also identifies strongly with its "Presbyterian-ness". In a similar vein, the Southern Baptist Convention, the Christian Reformed Church, and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (care to comment, Mollie?) are classified as "evangelical" rather than "mainline". If you take all the "Denominational Evangelicals" (the only statistically significant ones are Baptists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians) and move them into the "Mainline" column, the Evangelical/Mainline ratio goes from 26.3/18.1 to 12.9/31.5. The shift is mainly due to Baptists. What exactly do they mean by “mainline”? I would have thought that “mainline” would refer to all of the historic denominational traditions (Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc) without regard to theology, but it seems that Pew is instead identifying “evangelical” as conservative and “mainline” as liberal.

As a member of the Presbyterian Church in America, I immediately checked the chart for my denomination, and was surprised to find it classified as “evangelical” rather than “mainline”. PCA has a conservative theological orientation (“confessional” is a good term) but also identifies strongly with its “Presbyterian-ness”. In a similar vein, the Southern Baptist Convention, the Christian Reformed Church, and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (care to comment, Mollie?) are classified as “evangelical” rather than “mainline”.

If you take all the “Denominational Evangelicals” (the only statistically significant ones are Baptists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians) and move them into the “Mainline” column, the Evangelical/Mainline ratio goes from 26.3/18.1 to 12.9/31.5. The shift is mainly due to Baptists.

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]]> By: Dennis Colby http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118037 Dennis Colby Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:57:03 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118037 Connecticut may be small in size, but it has more residents than New Hampshire and Vermont combined. But the whole device of merging states seems odd. Connecticut may be small in size, but it has more residents than New Hampshire and Vermont combined. But the whole device of merging states seems odd.

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]]> By: Stephen A. http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118034 Stephen A. Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:40:34 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118034 I question any survey that thinks we still have 48 states. Hawaii and Alaska are curiously missing, without explanation. That's two million people who aren't represented here. And anyone who thinks New Hampshire and Vermont are so close together in attitudes that they can simply merge them into NewHampshireVermont, as this study does, is mistaken. (Same goes for ConnecticutRhode Island, although they truly are small.) And I won't take any guff about sample sizes being too small, either. The survey does bear out what I've been saying for a while, and that's that NH is one of the most "unchurched" places in the US (26%) At least (grumble) NH/VT is. Other than the hurt feelings, it was very interesting and enlightening. The trend, as many probably suspected, is away from the mainline protestants towards conservative denominations. Hence, "post-protestant." The megachurches do appear to be simply poaching, but they also seem to be very good at it. The effect of massive Hispanic immigration into the US has rescued the Catholic Church, it seems. That bears far more reporting, esp. the attitudes of the newcomers (more belief in miracles and veneration of the saints, perhaps) vs. the "cafeteria catholics," and how that manifests itself in congregations - if it does at all, since I wonder now if the seperate "ethnic churches" are making a comeback, too. I question any survey that thinks we still have 48 states. Hawaii and Alaska are curiously missing, without explanation. That’s two million people who aren’t represented here.

And anyone who thinks New Hampshire and Vermont are so close together in attitudes that they can simply merge them into NewHampshireVermont, as this study does, is mistaken. (Same goes for ConnecticutRhode Island, although they truly are small.) And I won’t take any guff about sample sizes being too small, either.

The survey does bear out what I’ve been saying for a while, and that’s that NH is one of the most “unchurched” places in the US (26%) At least (grumble) NH/VT is.

Other than the hurt feelings, it was very interesting and enlightening. The trend, as many probably suspected, is away from the mainline protestants towards conservative denominations. Hence, “post-protestant.” The megachurches do appear to be simply poaching, but they also seem to be very good at it.

The effect of massive Hispanic immigration into the US has rescued the Catholic Church, it seems. That bears far more reporting, esp. the attitudes of the newcomers (more belief in miracles and veneration of the saints, perhaps) vs. the “cafeteria catholics,” and how that manifests itself in congregations - if it does at all, since I wonder now if the seperate “ethnic churches” are making a comeback, too.

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]]> By: C. Wingate http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118029 C. Wingate Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:25:03 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118029 I notice, BTW, that the Pew survey counts (as usual) twice as many Anglicans as ECUSA does. I notice, BTW, that the Pew survey counts (as usual) twice as many Anglicans as ECUSA does.

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]]> By: danr http://www.getreligion.org/2008/02/pew-forum-marches-on-post-no-3000/comment-page-1/#comment-118019 danr Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:56:07 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3218#comment-118019 Got it - missed your qualifier "approaching", validated by earlier finding of "51.3 percent of US adults". Though it might have been (far) beyond the scope of the Pew Forum's survey, I wish they could've found a way to survey youth as well. 64% of born-again (evangelical) US Christians made that commitment to Christ before their 18th birthday - and 50% before age 13 (Barna). That's an important backdrop against which to view the current faith trends of US adults. Got it - missed your qualifier “approaching”, validated by earlier finding of “51.3 percent of US adults”.

Though it might have been (far) beyond the scope of the Pew Forum’s survey, I wish they could’ve found a way to survey youth as well. 64% of born-again (evangelical) US Christians made that commitment to Christ before their 18th birthday - and 50% before age 13 (Barna). That’s an important backdrop against which to view the current faith trends of US adults.

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