I’m rather speechless about this whole Ted Haggard story. I grew up down the road from his New Life megachurch (pop. 14,000) and have followed his ascendancy for years. I’m rather uncertain what can be said about the media coverage, too.
Stories like this are difficult to write about, and we’ve seen some good examples of how to treat it. I’m not sure if this is simply a personal opinion or a journalistic one, but I absolutely loathe this news cycle. I’m not sure if people need to read about the allegations or why they’re reading about them now.
Whether or not the allegations are true, this is a person with a wife and five kids. Whatever else may be said about him, I doubt Haggard claimed he was sinless or without lusts. And public condemnation of sinful behavior does not mean his private life is open season.
Yes, it’s salacious and juicy, but I think that reporters should think ethically about how to handle this story. And I think I might be speaking more to myself — who always experiences a bit ton of schadenfreude at the Elmer Gantry-like downfall of megachurch or televangelist leaders — than anyone else.
Anyway, here’s one thing I’ve picked up from the story. Mr. Jones, the drug-selling male escort, is the only source for the story. He says Haggard a) paid him for sex, b) bought crystal meth and c) used it in front of him. He’s failed a lie-detector test, but the test administrator says it could be because he’s not eaten or slept well.
The evidence, as it were, is an envelope allegedly from Haggard as well as two voice messages allegedly from Haggard that discuss what Jones says is a meth purchase. Haggard has admitted to some of the allegations while vehemently denying the prostitution charges.
Those bits of substantiation don’t support the gay sex charge. They support the drug usage claim. I think it’s interesting that reporters are leading and pushing the gay sex claims rather than the meatier drug claims. I’m not really sure what it means, I just find it interesting.
On this site we look at whether the media do a good job of understanding the religious angles to stories. And that is and will be a concern as this story develops. But reporters on the religion beat or any other beat should make sure to get the facts straight before anything else.
Once those facts are laid out better, Bible Belt Blogger Frank Lockwood asks an interesting question:
But why is it that many of the biggest names in the Pentecostal movement — over and over again — end up disgracing themselves and the church as a whole?
He notes that Haggard describes himself as Southern Baptist but applies some Charismatic practices such as speaking in tongues, the laying on of hands for healing, and prophecy. I think back to Eric Gorski’s excellent series on Bishop Dennis Leonard up I-25 at Heritage Christian Center. He linked the theology of prosperity to the church’s financial dealings.
The bottom line: Newspapers should follow The Denver Post’s lead by having religion reporters heavily involved in the coverage. It’s bound to pay off.
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Comments (53) |
November 3, 2006, at 3:33 pm
Hmm, I don’t know. I believe that reporters should report what they find. That said, they have to place the onus on Haggard’s accuser and if the evidence is sketchy they should make that clear as well. I’m struggling as to what to do about the words for an “off record” source in a story I’m writing, but the fact that Mr. Jones wants to be heard makes him more responsible for the information he’s giving than the source disseminating it. Journalists should be grilling this guy and then making sure their tracks are covered. That is how I learned the word “alleged” before “allegory” in this country
Also, I like the fact that the story broke nationally with the fact that Haggard is stepping down for the time being (at least the first headlines I read) the salient point of the story should remain with what actually happened, not what we think happened. And this is the first time I’ve heard about the drugs, why doesn’t Haggard’s accuser just put on a press conference if he’s releasing this evidence just now in order to champion gay rights?
As a Christian, I feel for Haggard and it comes as a reminder to me and all of us that whatever is done in the darkness will be revealed in light. I came face to face with the fact that I was being a hypocrite and about a similar situation Haggard is facing. We all do if we are are honest and human. Sorry to diverege from this website’s focus on journalism, but it brings up an important question - to people of all faiths:
“How do you react when one of your religious leaders, brothers, or likewise affiliates is associated with a scandal that especially reflects on your religion?”
This is really interesting because of the fact that this story is almost as political as it is relgious. How do the political leanings of people of faith inform how they react to the above? Should we expect dissimilar things out of the mouths of Andrew Sullivan and Howard Dean on this?
Sorry to go on and on, one has to try to find the “good” or lesson in things. Great blog, keep it up!
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November 3, 2006, at 3:35 pm
Breaking, from CNN:
“The Rev. Ted Haggard admits he purchased methamphetamine from Mike Jones, the man who accuses Haggard of paying him for sex, but the pastor says he threw away the drugs.”
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November 3, 2006, at 3:43 pm
I commend you for getting up front on this one, but I think you are mistaken in being reticent about calling this what it is - grievous sin that should result in the immediate removal of Ken Haggard from any position of spiritual leadership. Furthermore, unless he gives an immediate and comprehensive confession and seeks forgiveness and restitution, he should be excommunicated or removed from fellowship. At this point he ought to be regarded as an unbeliever until we have reason to believe otherwise. Pray for his soul. Pray for his family. Pray for his church and his associates, but let there be no confusion about the seriousness of his offense.
Do we really have any doubt that he did what he is accused of? I think not. Why should we believe that if he is buying and using meth that he purchases from a homosexual that he is not engaged in sodomy also? He has obviously been leading a double life. What reason is there to believe that he would use drugs but draw the line at sodomy?
This is a clear case for I Corinthians 5.
Part of the problem with these huge mega-churches is that the pastors become unaccountable. They build these churches on personal charisma and if there is a restraining element in their church government (and usually there isn’t), it isn’t strong enough to keep them in check. I cannot believe that the apostles intended anybody to exercise the role of “shepherd” over 14,000 people. He can’t possibly even meet them all, much less know them.
The mega-church is based on a false foundation, ie. it is built on a secular business model, rather than any model found in scripture. And usually there is little of quality or in-depth scriptural instruction to be found in them.
Ken Haggard was an accident waiting to happen. Let’s acknowledge this disaster for what it is, and let’s not make excuses. Excuses are not going to fool anyone. Regardless of the “motivation” for the accuser, the actions are undoubtedly real and the sin is as egregious as possible.
What on earth causes us to elect these people to positions of prominence in the eyes of the world? This type of guy is dangerous to the reputation of the church visible. How many times do we have to endure the Bakkers, Swaggarts, and Haggards before we learn?
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November 3, 2006, at 3:48 pm
John, Who’s Ken Haggard?
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November 3, 2006, at 4:09 pm
Are drugs worse than gay sex with a prostitute if you are a prominent Evangelical? Drugs may be illegal, but they aren’t an “abomination.”
When I was doing work with people with AIDS, I was always surprised the lengths clients went to to emphasize they had AIDS because they were heroin addicts, and not gay. In many circles, being a drug addict or user is higher up on the acceptability ladder than being gay. That could be as true on the streets of Colorado Springs as it is in the housing projects of DC.
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November 3, 2006, at 4:21 pm
I’m pretty sure John meant Ted Haggard, Alison. And I agree with John that anyone who believes that they are beyond sinning, which Ted Haggard clearly states in his radio interview with Todd Wilken, is bound for a fall (see my long comment to Timing, Tapes and Clintonian grammar). Any church that twists scripture to tell its parishioners that they will sin less and less as they mature in the faith is setting them up for failure. I also fault the false teaching that God speaks to people apart from His Word.
Mollie, I don’t know what Ted Haggard did and I’m sure whatever happened will be twisted around by the media, but he has admitted to something and has resigned his various posts. I’ve been following this guy since my own days as an evangelical and I am not surprised that someone who claims to hardly sin anymore would fall prey to Satan’s attempts to make him lose his faith through sin (that is Satan’s one goal - to separate us from God by our sin). I agree that this is a very sad story, both for the Haggards and for his followers.
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November 3, 2006, at 4:34 pm
Theresa,
Excellent points. The underlying theology needs to be brought into the stories. And the Wilken interview angle is fascinating.
Mollie
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November 3, 2006, at 5:24 pm
Well, there are THREE “sins” here- drug use (illegal, but not an “offical” sin); sodomy (considered by Haggards followers as a sin, but not illegal- although prostitiution is); and hypocracy. The last is the one that will fuel the news coverage, and deservedly so- sex and drugs per se aren’t interesting; tearing off a liar’s mask IS.(And the coverage itself will probably have it’s share of hypocracy, too).
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November 3, 2006, at 6:02 pm
Well, I see at least three sins here, but hypocrisy isn’t one of them. Not that he isn’t being hypocritical—he is, I’m just not sure that’s a sin, per se. But he is indeed guilty of adultery, in addition to drug use and sodomy. Not to mention lying. Ok, four sins.
Hypocrisy is something we’re all guilty of from time to time. Haggard was preaching that these things were sins, as scripture does. Therefore any sin Haggard commits could be considered hypocrisy. I just don’t think it’s a useful category in this case. Only partisans are arguing that somehow Haggard’s sins invalidate his opposition to same-sex marriage, for instance. Everyone else knows perfectly well that violating our own closely held moral codes does not necessarily mean that we are insincere in holding them. The spirit is willing, but…you know.
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November 3, 2006, at 6:02 pm
Your sympathy for Ted’s family is touching, Mollie, but rings a little hollow given your shrill words for Mike Jones, especially now that Ted has confessed to at least the most salient points of Mike’s accusation — AFTER he suggested Mike was a liar. So let’s add that to Ted’s sin list, shall we? Or do gay escorts not count? The way I see it, there’s Ted and his wealthy family, and there’s Mike, a very poor man with a basically good heart, torn up about what to do, compelled to testify against someone who was hurting his community. I know from personal experience that Ted is a vengeance-minded guy — I just hope he’s humble enough after this not to pick on Jones, who doesn’t have a magazine to back him.
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November 3, 2006, at 6:12 pm
Michael:
All sins are “abominations”…
Listen to the Wilken piece with Haggard, it was
interesting when Wilken got into it with a caller
and asked him if “God grades on the curve”. We
all break His 10 commandments every day. That’s
why we need a saviour. Only those who want to
save themselves don’t require one.
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November 3, 2006, at 6:23 pm
Hahaha.
So it seems that Molly’s last quotation and its accompanying comments have set the tone for these comments.
No, wait. They had help, didn’t they? With that title and that confession that used that German-looking word (as well as the German word itself), I’d say that she also wrote the music….
If that wasn’t clear enough, Molly, I think that your post was overly personal and biased. Aye, it had some nice, meaty bits, but you’re showing a rather obvious anti-Charismatic bias.
I don’t think Bible Belt Blogger’s Frank Lockwood’s question is notably interesting. He listed six big-name Pentecostal/Charismatic preachers who brought shame to the faith through their conduct. Six. Is Renewalism so small, or are their “big” preachers generally so few that six qualifies as “many” and warrants saying they do it “over and over again”? Or are there many others of the biggest that he isn’t naming? Or does he just have such a high standard of Christians — or maybe Renewalists — that he thinks any number more than zero is many and any more than two warrants saying “over and over again”?
I wish it were the last option….
I also don’t see much good coming from bringing out the underlying theology, especially to the general, un-theological public. Should Fox and CNN suggest to their viewers that the doctrine that people sin less the closer they get to God is heretical and is possibly a significant factor in these big scandals? Or should they say it’s part of a group of such dangerous doctrines, including the beliefs that the Gifts of the Spirit (not including crystal meth) persist to today and are for all believers, and that God wants you to believe him for all your needs (and yes, that’s my moderation of the excesses of the health, wealth and prosperity doctrine)?
Or are you guys more going for the angle that they should point out that he isn’t like you guys? You know, “he’s part of that fringe-ish sect that believes these wacky and heretical things — things that we don’t subscribe to and things that are probably partially responsible for his fall.†If only he wasn’t part of one of the largest, one of the most influential, and the fastest growing section of Christianity! (You know, that section that is eminently useful when you’re spreading the Gospel to unbelievers, feeding the poor, healing the sick, setting the captives free, and campaigning against things like abortion and same-sex marriage.)
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November 3, 2006, at 8:18 pm
I may be a bit more cynical, but I’m guessing it’s about the old cliche “sex sells.” Using the words “Pastor,” “Gay,” “Prostitute,” “Drugs,” and “denies” in the lede probably quadruples the readship and doubles the sales.
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November 3, 2006, at 9:24 pm
In the meantime, the media—especially in its entertainment outlets— loves to constantly makes jokes about “Catholic guilt,” or fundamentalist and evangelical Protestant “fire and brimstone.” But, if media info is true Ted Haggards problem may have been the heresy that says the closer you get to God the less you have to worry about sin each day. Whereas the original orthodox position is that one must always be aware of one’s moral weakness which is part of our heritage from Adam’s fall. Devout Catholics who say their daily Rosary end each Ave Maria with “pray for us sinners now, etc. The deacon’s and priest’s daily “office” combined with daily Mass includes the Our Father thrice: “forgive us our trespasses.” And devout Eastern Catholics and Orthodox daily use a prayer rope to count 100 “Jesus Prayers” which end “have mercy upon me a sinner” (based on Jesus’ extolling the publican for beating his breast and asking God to be merciful to him, a sinner.)
These may incur feelings of “guilt” the media derides as these prayers make one think about what sins, minor or major, one has committed that day. But for many who take these prayers to heart it is a preventer of the “pride that goeth before a fall” that leads to worse sin. Better a little honest guilt, a pounding of the breast, a fear of offending God’s love and receiving a just punishment, than to be convinced of one’s purity and sinlessness even as one takes massages and drugs from a male prostitute.
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November 3, 2006, at 10:24 pm
The media are going after the sex and not the drugs because…
The evangelicals are going after the sex and not the drugs!
Honestly, which are they focusing on more, hmm?
The political evangelicals are increasingly becoming a one-trick pony. Sex is the only thing they really do.
So of course it’s bigger news when one gets caught on sex charges. It’s what they are primarily about.
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November 5, 2006, at 7:01 pm
Deacon John, I agree with your assertion that evangelicalism of the fundamentalist flavour (using Haggard’s ‘Baskin Robbins’ metaphor) is seriously in error, “heresy”. The notion that one can by a process of time and effort work their way to sinless perfection, or even through some “second work of grace”, is flat out rubbish. The need for daily grace to live as Christians is self-evident within historic Christian Sacramental theology. It is hyper-protestant mega-types who have wandered into some kind of ethereal-intellectual wilderness, preaching a false gospel…
…have mercy upon us miserable offenders; spare Thou them O God which confess their faults;restore Thou them that are penitent; according to Thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesu our Lord…
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November 6, 2006, at 7:41 am
Christianity as defended by the apologists in this forum is TOXIC POISON which damages the natural order on this planet. This stems from your claim that all mankind is fundamentally flawed and requires your particular form of salvation. Your bible has filled your head with TOXIC ideas about right and wrong based on the irrational authority you give to magic (miracles) and fortune-telling (prophesy).
You say ‘love the sinner and hate the sin’ but your automatic label of ’sinner’ is nothing more than self-righteous judgment which by its definition prevents you from loving anything.
SIN DOES NOT EXIST IN REALITY. It’s a manmade construct, a concept in language, used to describe reality, but not the thing itself. Do animals sin? Do trees? Do rocks? Do stars? Why humans, then? Please, give it a rest. It doesn’t make rational sense.
Belief in the SUPERNATURAL, ghosts and demons and heaven paved in gold, now this is crazy thinking. Try for a change the idea that mankind has a NATURAL place on this planet and that we belong here in nature doing exactly what we do, warts and all. There is no need for a messiah because there’s nothing to save. If ever there was an ANTI-CHRIST idea, this is it. The antithesis of Christianity’s message is that there’s NOTHING WRONG WITH US just as there’s nothing wrong with cats or dogs or ants or worms or dirt or water or air. It’s all part of the natural order of things.
This is not to say that mistakes can be made, learned from, and improved upon. But instead of harping about right and wrong, try asking the question “Is it working?†Is it working for me to do this? Answering this question can yield different answers at different times, for sure, and will give you insight and integrity without the TOXIC condemnation and irrational fear of eternal consequences. Try it? You might find that it works. You also may find that love, compassion and forgiveness become easier to make manifest in your world.
Or you can pray in fear for the rapture and an end to it all. It’s your choice
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November 6, 2006, at 11:22 am
Haggard heartache
All over the news cycle (1,792 articles at the time of this writing) and blogosphere (5,886 results on Technorati + 2nd most popular blog search) is the recent allegations against Ted Haggard, founding pastor of New Life Church in Colorado and now-resi…
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November 6, 2006, at 12:32 pm
When someone is a liar, then everything else they say is suspect. Ted not only said he didn’t know the man but Ted accused the man of lying and making things up. It’s different when you say, “I didnt do it”; than when you say, “I didn’t do it, he did!” You see my point? Ted was willing to discredit someone else so he would go free. That’s the heartache here. Ted accused falsely that someone else was a liar. He was so desperate to keep his reputation and his church that he would toss someone else under to remain on top. so now you not only have a liar, you have a coward and a bully, all in one. I believe anything said about Ted now. Because I know he will resort to another sin to cover the last one up. Ted is the worst kind of leader in America. Thank God for his fall..but it wasn’t from grace, it was from lust.
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November 6, 2006, at 12:47 pm
Hello, We happen to know Mr. Jones for many years- and we just want to re-emphasize a self proclaimed liar is calling someone else a liar.
The moral injustice is that Ted cheated on his wife end of discussion.
Christians are so judgmental when Jesus was not ever in any case.
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November 6, 2006, at 1:05 pm
It seems to me that the press never makes a point of the fact that these poor souls are very happy leading their dual lives and are sorry ONLY for the fact that they have been caught at it. I cannot remember a religious or political person ever admitting that they were wrong or sorry before they were outed. I realize the telephone quote in his own words was a short snippet but it certainly indicated to me that at the time of the conversation he was very comfortable with the situation and with conversing with a homosexual person.
Religious writers tend to obfuscate the fact that humans are humans including the so-called leaders that they insist on venerating.
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November 6, 2006, at 1:27 pm
Haggard more than anyone should know that you should not just avoid evil but the appearance of evil. It is extremely hard to believe that he was not involved in some appearances of evil. And the public is entitled to know what its leaders are involved in. He laid this controversy upon himself by somehow involving himself with the wrong people/situations. We should all be forgiving, but at the same time he should be held accountable for his actions. Let the investigation process takes its course so that we can understand the situation better.
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November 6, 2006, at 1:31 pm
Of course Haggard is a big liar.This article points out that Jones failed a lie detector test — anyone knows they give erratic results, or I guess people tend to overlook that point accoridng to their own convenience. Of course Haggard is a liar, and a pretty bad one at that. The pattern was to just admit to all the stuff that was provable — yes I bought drugs (but didn’t use them) Yes I hired a gay sex worker (but only for a relaxing massage). Then an investigation of his own church revealed “beyond doubt” that there was “sexually immoral behavior” involved. At this point Ted sort-of came clean and talked about some “dark” and horrible cravings he has been struggling with (occasionally winning, occasionally not, apparently) throughout his “entire adult life.” But then he leaves some doubt by saying that “some” of the accusations aren’t true — I guess if you love him, you can still be free to imagine he didn’t pay to have himself reamed out by Jones all those times he went to Denver to write spiritual books.
Notice how he went from “I never met the guy” to “Yes I bought drugs but didn’t use them” to “Yes I have a dark immoral sexual side” — according to the necessity of the case. And this from a guy who uses the pulpit to drum up support for discriminating against gays. Now I read this article… —by a religious fruitcake? — that says that the media has been all over Ted, and, after all, the guy has kids and all… Now, I ask you, What public figure doesn’t have kids? I give a D+ for journalism here, and only because I am lenient.
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November 6, 2006, at 1:56 pm
I agree that people’s personal lives are of no one’s business. But if you make political or religious hay of what goes on behind other people’s closed doors, then your personal life is a fair game.
Had Haggard not made a career of pointing out stys in other’s eyes, Haggard’s dallinances should have been something between him and his family members.
Had William Bennet not crusaided against the way others choose to spend their money, his gambling problem should have been between him and his addiction councelor.
Had Newt Gingrich not shouted about “sanctity of marriage” to everyone who would listen, we would not be asking him which of his three marriages was sacred.
Stop trying to legislate morality. If you believe something is immoral, don’t do it and feel free to discourage others from doing it. This is your first ammendment right. But stop trying to shove your personal moral principles down people’s throats.
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November 6, 2006, at 1:59 pm
When he made other people’s personal lives a public issue with media appearances in favor of the ban on gay marriage, his personal life became fair game.
Motes and beams and all that.
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November 6, 2006, at 2:05 pm
Was watching “Dateline - To Catch a Predator” recently where there is a parade of would be internet prowlers seeking after young teens for sex. We all know the scenario - they show up at the sting and are confronted by correspondent Chris Hansen who asks them what they’re doing at the house of a 13 year old who’s “home alone.” Of course the answer is invariably, “Oh, I just wanted to talk,” or “I just wanted to make a new friend” after they’ve exchanged salacious e-mails. Exactly what Haggard said, “Oh, I just wanted a massage.” How many times have we heard on “Cops” that the cocaine or weed found in the car was someone else’s or some other lame excuse? Well, the sexual abusers on Dateline are then thrown in the clink and many of them have children and families and they’re exposed to national ridicule. How may minorities and others are thrown into jail for lesser offences than Haggard’s purchase of meth? And these people aren’t preaching about the “sinners” amongst us. Now Haggard is on leave with his family to recuperate. Give me a break. He’s going on a vacation to rejuvenate his soul while others of his ilk get 5-10 up the river. This is just a continuation of disgusting hypocracy on all sides. Either free the literal millions of people in jail on spurious drug charges or throw this creep into the clink. God bless.
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November 6, 2006, at 2:26 pm
I don’t believe Ted Haggard’s confession. He is a deceitful liar, we all are.
Can you imagine him lying in bed late at night thinking what he’s done? He must have been planning for this moment in his nightmare imaginings for all these years. Yet… he kept… doing it.
Ted Haggard isn’t “really” sorry. He’s sorry he got caught. Just as anyone is who gets “caught”.
Now, this is just one man, however powerful he may be he doesn’t represent the whole group. They have their own hypocrisy to explain…
What I really want to know is why Ted Haggard is so openly embraced and “forgiven” by his fellow Christians when all the other so called “perverts and sinners” are rejected by these same people in “the name of Jesus Christ”?
Why should Ted Haggard get a free ride from them when they accuse and fight to deny rights to openly gay people who don’t do drugs and don’t lie on this scale? At least the openly gay don’t pretend they are something they aren’t. They can sleep soundly at night not worrying about their double lives, not needing drugs to get the nerve up to do what is in their hearts.
The people in those churches this past Sunday had tears in their eyes, and were full of forgiveness and love for this “poor troubled man”.
Show the same compassion for EVERYONE you hypocrites. I thought that was the christian way…
But alas, I guess that just doesn’t get as many votes or elect enough narrow minded judges.
-vern
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November 6, 2006, at 2:45 pm
“But why is it that many of the biggest names in the Pentecostal movement — over and over again — end up disgracing themselves and the church as a whole?”
IMHO…Pentacostalism is fixated upon emotional experiences & it is therefore vulnerable of emotional manipulations.
Marlow
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November 6, 2006, at 3:05 pm
I can’t believe you wonder why the media is leading with the gay angle! This is just another example of how the church of man has corrupted the message of God, if there ever was one! It is one thing to have religious convictions, but another to try to force your morality on everyone else! I don’t care if he is gay or bi or whatever, but I do care when he is living a lie and telling everyone else how they should live their lives. He was actively trying to lobby for laws that would force others to live their lives based on his professed beliefs. That is what is so interesting to the media.
Blind faith is a crutch, some people need it and I am not saying it is all bad, however if God wanted us to blindly follow whoever stood in front of us why did he give us a brain…. its so we can think for ourselves!
I cant wait until we start putting hot pokers on gay people for their sins, they obviously need to be converted or killed for the good of the church (insert sarcasm here), then we can take another stab at the indians… some of them still believe in their pegan gods. Its only a matter of time until this kind of thinking brings about another genocide or war or inquisition…. the church of man leads only to greed and the oppression of people.
Think for your self or someone else will do it for you… and then they will smoke meth and have sex with a male prostitute!
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November 6, 2006, at 3:13 pm
Haggard is another in a long line of profiteering cultists hiding behind the veil of religion. These guys make millions and laugh all the way to the bank. I feel bad for his kids, no one else. Religion and politics serve only to divide human beings. I can do without the snake oil salesmen that populate both camps.
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November 6, 2006, at 3:14 pm
Yes, his private life is his own business UNLESS he uses his considerable influence to denigrate and demean the very people who openly and without excuse engage in behavior he does in secret.
He’s nothing less than a liar and hypocrite and richly deserves the shame heaped upon him.
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November 6, 2006, at 3:17 pm
“Halls of Shame” — Contemplating Haggard’s situation from a spiritual perspective.
http://www.spiritualcommentary.com
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November 6, 2006, at 3:21 pm
Great dialogue, and it gets more lucid the closer we get to the bottom. People who put their faith in authoritarian, one truth, one right way to live ideologies (Christians, Muslims, Jews, Republicans, North Koreans)are simply less evolved on a conscious level (that’ll piss some people off I am sure).
There are models that do a pretty good job of explaining this assertion. Please see:
http://www.jonkohl.com/worldview/worldview-assets/newsletters/Spiral%20Dynamics.jpg
Religion is “blue” meme. Many of us who have transcended this set of values, simply cannot understand why anyone would relinquish their autonomy of thought to a religious or political leader who professes to know the right way to live.
Where does your worldview fit on the SD scale. I invite you to explore a little further.
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November 6, 2006, at 3:27 pm
“But why is it that many of the biggest names in the Pentecostal movement — over and over again — end up disgracing themselves and the church as a whole?”
Because they aren’t men of God. They are men of Money. Charismatics all too often are egomaniacs who have found a way to make a lot of money by claiming to be the voice of God. It’s usually when they reach the top of the heap that they get knocked off it, simply because at that point their egos take over any common sense they had left, and their sense of power tells them they can get away with anything now.
The modest preacher who lives quietly and makes no claims that God speaks through him is a far better person to listen to than the Super-Preachers who shout Gawd and JEE-sus.
The ones who try to live as Jesus wanted us to live. Listen to them and ignore the shouters and those who keep asking for donations and Join this Club, $500 will entitle you to…….
Jesus preached humility and anyone who follows the Super-Preachers deserves the letdowns they get.
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November 6, 2006, at 3:58 pm
HAHA. HE got what was comming to him. IT’s great to see those whom believe that they are “holy-er than Tho” fall from grace. Best of luck to him in the afterlife. Someone is going to hell.
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November 6, 2006, at 3:58 pm
Shame-Shame>>>>This a real joke. The gay guy is just as sinful as the pastor. How many times has the gay done drugs and had sex. I am not saying that the pastor is right. The GAY IS JUST WANTING TO STIR UP HIS GAY MOVEMENT AND THINKS HE IS MAKING POINTS BUT IS HE FOOLISH. THE MEDIA IS AWFUL. I WONDER HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE DONE DRUGS AND HAD SEX. What a world you live in. Everyone has sinned and don’t think that you don’t have to answer. At least the Pastor is confessing and has step down and is sorry. The guy is still doing is thing and say he is a christian has he truly repented. Who is he to judge::::::
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November 6, 2006, at 4:17 pm
In reply to the elloquent words of mary brennan:
Huh.. WTF did you say that was the most mush mouthed answer or rebutal to an argument that I have ever had the pleasure of reading. Thank you for bringing me a lil’ smile today.
I’m not sure what you were trying to say but I love that you call the male prostitute “THE GAY”! Should we burn him? After him maybe the Jews and the Catholics?
Wow amazing how professed followers of Jesus are so intolerant! I hope I dont have to answer to your God because if I do I dont want to be in heaven!
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November 6, 2006, at 4:35 pm
Gee it is a shame that so many mega church leaders get caught in these sex scandals. Give me that old time religion of neighborhood pastors and churches where everyone knows everyone else. the bigger they are the harder they fall
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November 6, 2006, at 4:49 pm
“But why is it that many of the biggest names in the Pentecostal movement — over and over again — end up disgracing themselves and the church as a whole?”
Interesting question. Personally, I think that the whole emotion-charged Pentecostal stuff is a sign of emotional instability. Emotional instability can manifest itself in many ways.
Too bad these guys have to take such a strong stand against homosexuality. But is is nice to have some group to oppose. It used to be - I came from the South - that you could hear sermons from such types justifying segregation. “Hewers of wood and drawers of water they shall be.” Now just about the only group you can safely preach against is homosexuals. Not that the homosexuals are listening, but it gives the congregation some cohesiveness, and it is easier to define a group by what it is not than by what it is.
No, I have no sympathy for the man or his wife. He is a jerk and she ought to have figured that out by now.
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November 6, 2006, at 5:34 pm
The press reported his views on gay sex when he was judging the gay life style and now that he was caught I think the press has an obligation to report the story. After all he put himself in the position of a public leader for morality didn’t he?
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November 6, 2006, at 6:02 pm
Vern, why do you feel compelled to judge this man? There is only one who is justified in judging us, we are to not judge each other lest we be judged. You claim “[Ted]isn’t “really†sorry. He’s sorry he got caught.”. How would you KNOW this? Surely many suspect this, but ultimately that matter is between him and God and is not our concern. In fact, those who know Ted well report that he feels a great sense of relief that his sins have been exposed and he can begin a healing process.
Ted’s letter was clear that he recognized all along that his sin was inconsistent with his teachings. His admission ultimately aligns him with his teaching. He failed to live up to the Biblical standard in his own life. That is not hypocracy, it is sin and failure, a condition we are all pre-disposed to since the fall.
Clearly, Ted lived a life of lies for years, and when confronted continued to lie. When it became apparent to Ted that God had exposed his lies, he began making honorable decisions. Had he continued with further lies, he would have been denying God’s sovereignty, a far greater sin than any he had already committed. That he came to this point as soon as he did speaks well of his character. We are all too familiar with public figures who are exposed for their lies and sins and continue to live those lies.
What can be gained by demonizing this man any further? He has fallen and nothing constructive can be gained by further attacks on his character unless the motivation is to use this to deceive others to deny God. Satan is perfectly capable of that task, he does not need help.
Years from now, we will have the added perspective of time and actions to view Ted’s response. If he repents and lives his life in God’s word, he will be just as saved as any man. If he continues to live a life of lies and moral failure, he will face the same fate as all sinners, no more and no less.
Don’t accept the lie that Christians reject anyone. Those who would want you to believe this are deceiving you. Christians seek to reject sin, not sinners. It is however, common for all humans, Christian or otherwise, to fall into the deceiver’s trap of judging and rejecting others. This is perhaps no more prevalent in a Christian than in your own life. I sense a rejection of Christians in your statements and wonder if this is any less of a transgression than the rejection of sinners you believe exists.
Christians do not believe homosexuality is any greater sin that any other. Certainly your comment that at least openly gay people do not engage in the lies and deception is a credit to those who chose this lifestyle and don’t try to hide the fact. That does not change what the Bible says about the matter, but it is far more honorable than living a life of lies.
The cry of a Christian’s heart is to see sinners repent and live in God’s word. We cry to God daily in our prayers for sinners, and weep as we did Sunday when a sinner confronts his own sin and begin a journey of repentance and reconciliation with God. The journey or repentance is ultimately the acknowledgment of the gift of Christ, that we may fall and still have an opportunity to live a full life with God through the sacrifice of Christ.
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November 6, 2006, at 6:33 pm
Here Here - Rob
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November 6, 2006, at 6:54 pm
These are the differences we will never over come.
Who are we to say what a sin is? Oh wait thats right it says right here in a book, written and re-written by MEN (NOT God) seeking to justify their own ends, exactly what sin is.
You go on following a book written to keep you in line and thinking with “the flock” and wait patiently every sunday until the shepheard (priest, pastor, etc.) comes to take you to slaughter (molest your kids, cheat you, betray you) at his/her whim!
Every being on earth has some sort of “gift” from “God”, either claws wings fur etc. I was not given fur or claws or huge sharp teeth. I prefer to use the one advantage that “God” gave me which is a brain. He would not give me this “gift” if he did not intend for me to use it. Instead of blindly following the teachings of “the Church of Man” I choose to think for myself and make my own conclusions about faith, God and these very personal issues! If God has something to say let him speak to me! If he was capable of making me I dont think I need a translator!
First let me say I am not gay, however if I do not stand up and speak out against the intollerance shown to the people who are gay when will I be the next target of these christian zealots? All I am saying is I respect your right to believe/do whatever you like as long as it does not harm anyone! However I would also like the same respect shown to me and my beliefs! I want the right to NOT believe what you believe and to live in peace without you and your flock trying to legislate my behavior into conforming to your standards of morality!
The crux of the problem is that other people dont share your view of what a “sin” is and you cannot accept that, you must force conformity upon these people. Every time you say someone will go to hell ect. you have taken it upon yourself to become God’s Judge Jury and Executioner becuse you have sentenced them to death in the afterlife Why??? because they didnt believe as you did! Did god tell you directly that this persons sin was actually a sin or are you relying on a book that was written by MEN who are inherently flawed?
Worry about yourselves believe whateve you like but leave the rest of us alone!
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November 6, 2006, at 6:58 pm
I believe the whole episode simply shines a glaring light on the fallacy of pseudo-christian cultism (as opposed to true Christianity).
The whole fundimental mantra rests on the Bible being God’s word, rather than the word of men, compiled and brought together by committee who’s real purpose was to unite a rising religious movement in order to stabilize an empire. Pretty much the same has occurred today with the republican/fundy linkages.
People that follow abominations like Mr. Haggard, Mr. Falwell, Mr. Delay, etc., are cultist, just as fundimental Islamic clerics and worshipers. It is a political machine using religious fanaticism to control/manipulate a population in order to further the power/fnancial/status aims of the charismatic few.
In no Christian teaching does it indicate a pass on associating with satan in order to accomplish the political goals of “the church”.
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November 6, 2006, at 7:56 pm
People that follow abominations like Mr. Haggard, Mr. Falwell, Mr. Delay, etc., are ethnocentric in their paradigm, and simply unable to comprehend that many of us have transcended that way of thinking to one where we view all people as one species on one planet, rather than some exclusive group mistrustful and intolerant of others. Unfortunately people who do not question their own beliefs are likely to end up as pawns in the power and money schemes of hucksters and con men like Haggard et al. I would include Bush. Cheney and Rumsfeld in the list.
And anyone that believes the Bible is the word of God has deliberately ignored history. The version we usually read is the King James version, known for its errors when translated from the Hebrew.
Jesus must be rolling over in his grave when he sees what people do in his name….. oh yeah the Bible offers some other twist on that story….
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November 6, 2006, at 8:44 pm
Ye of “faith”
Funny how those of blind faith (is there any other kind?) always denigrate science when it conflicts with your beliefs.
There is no scientific evidence of “sin” in nature and emerging evidence that some homosexuality is normal in most higher animal species including homo sapiens. Get used to it. Poor Haggard didn’t really have a choice in his sexual feelings. He did have a choice, however, to eschew power and adulation for self honestly and humility.
If faith serves you so well why don’t your pastors design airplanes, cars, medicines etc. I wouldn’t go near any that were not from designers steeped in the rational disciplines of science and I doubt those of “faith” would either. You have amagnificant brain. Use it.
SaberJim
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November 6, 2006, at 10:42 pm
Did you hear that recent research indicatesKing James was a closeted homosexual.
Jesus was a sandal wearing unmarried Liberal.
He hung around with 12 dudes who thought he was god.I doubt god cares about ted (or anyone) being gay. Long ago Gays were married in chuches in many of our major religions.
Ted being gay is his true self.Pretending he is not is profitable
Spiritual leader uncle Ted had a weekly standing
conference call with spirograph jawed crankhead Preident Bush , so that 30 million evangellicals can get thier marching orders.
Wake up Y’all!
All this anti gay stuff is meant to scare you into going to the polls and vote republican.
All of you fools who are talking about what you think about “Ted’s Crank fueled homo sins ” are in denile. the real sin is that Rev Ted. is in denile of who he really is, a guy who who works for the republican party but claims to be making the party work for you.The Questions;Does he not belive? ,Did Satan make him do it?
All of these are interesting.
I think it is more that he is a money whore who is praying on the weakness of weak people. Ok, if god and Satan are part of this,
Perharps he is part of the AntiChrist bunch the rapture right are waiting for. Wouldn’t that be ironic. The chosen ones end up being wrong ,and end up going down in flames eternal because the depraved slugs who they helped to power betrayed them. (Instead of everyone else as previously planned.) In the rapture someone gets decieved?
Most people would rather not elect lunatics to public office. Thank you superchuches.
Who is a person who kills people and claims that he talks direcly to god? Rev Ted hangs with him.
God is against people who kill people.
Most of the people god talks to are usually prophets or mental patients. Are they not?
If they are faking it, what are you if you follow them? You are a Lemming.
On election day. DICK CHENEY IS GOING
Hunting in South Dakota.
So be safe South Dakota,
and dress like a gamebird.
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November 7, 2006, at 12:12 am
What is striking to me is that New Life church members (along with the rest of the Evangelicals whose opinions I’ve read) obviously don’t learn the most obvious lesson: people who are self-righteous and judgemental cannot be the real Christians.
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November 7, 2006, at 1:57 am
First there was the alligations, Then denial
Until proof was put forth
Then ther was limited admission folowed by more denial ie. lies.
Until proof was put forth
Then ther was limited admission folowed by more denial ie. lies.
typical
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November 7, 2006, at 2:56 pm
I feel that anyone who actively works to oppress a minorty goup, such as gays, and then behind everyone’s back, even the President’s (!) and commit acts of such blatant hypocrisy, amd adultery, deserves the kind of public chastisement Mr. Haggard is receiving. But the point is clear—we’re not sure who Mr. Haggard actually is and apparently neither does he. He cannot be trusted, especially as a public figure.
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November 7, 2006, at 8:52 pm
Careful with your judgment of all New Lifers and Evangelicals Emil. Your statement sounds just as self-righteous as those you criticize. For every Christian who is self-righteous, there are likely 10 who are humble and considerate of others. But, you don’t see or hear from these people as their humility precludes them from speaking up.
Christians are subject to the same lapses in judgment and character as any other human. We do not seek to be self righteous, but are often immature in life, faith or simply lack the intelligence to see the impact of our statements. This is unfortunately as true for Christian leaders as it is for the flock as our leaders are just as human as the rest of us.
Christians are probably no more prone to this than others, but given the religion’s call to love our enemies, the contradiction appears as hypocritical. Hypocracy seems to engender greater feelings of hatred when exposed than many other forms of disrespect. I suspect you can look at most humans, including secularists and see similar instances of judgment or rejection of others but these do not stand out as these folks are not expected to be tolerant. I sense a lot of rejection of Christians on this site, I wonder how this is any more acceptable than the perceived rejection Christians have towards others?
I believe the events of the last week are God speaking to us all in a very prominent way. I believe sin is clearly defined in the Bible, by God as spoken to and documented by man. This has been reinforced by the example God illustrated through Ted. That said, we are all called to seek to avoid sin in our own lives including not judging others. Therefore, it is none of my business how any man chooses to live his life, it is not for me to judge. While I may recognize sin when I see it, it is not for me to judge. I might even pray for another to be delivered from sin, but again, it is not for me to judge or reject that man.
Ted was held accountable by God for a number of sins. Ted committed his life to his wife, his family, his church and to the larger Christian community. His commitment was to live in God’s word and to seek a life free of sin. He responded in the end by deceiving those he loved most. His sin was pride, arrogance and deceit. I would argue the sex and drugs were probably not the reason God held Ted accountable, rather these were merely the vehicle that brought Ted to this point. Perhaps that is why God defines sexual sins as they tend to lead one to a deceitful life. Someone above stated that at least a gay that is out of the closet is honest, I would agree. I would not go so far as to say the gay man is sinless (none of us can honestly profess that), but he is far more honorable than the man who professes to hate sexual sin and engage in the same in private.
So, God has judged Ted. All of us can learn from the lesson. That does not justify any of us to judge Ted. He fell and fell hard and our job is to make sense of it and learn what we can from it and apply the lessons in our own lives. The lesson is clearly not just intended for Christians alone as Ted’s life touched so many other parts of our society.
In a way, Ted is far better off now than many of us who will escape judgment in this life but will have to face God’s judgment in the next life without time to repent and change our ways.
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November 8, 2006, at 12:33 pm
That is very good - Thank you Rob for being truthful, and putting the whole thing in perspective. We should all take a long look in the mirror before we start to judge others.
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November 10, 2006, at 11:41 am
hey,so Gods pissed off again at the church.
what elese is new?
the church has been bewhicthed! again!
rev;kenny-ray
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