Comments on: In praise of valid news angles http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=in-praise-of-valid-angles "The press . . . just doesn't get religion." -- William Schneider Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:04:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Larry Rasczak http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70260 Larry Rasczak Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:44:27 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70260 "If I’m not mistaken that’s Lakewood Church in Houston led by Joel Osteen in the picture" I think you are right Trevor. It used to be the Compaq center before Lakewood bought it. I used to go see the Rockets and the Aeros play there. Saw the circus once too, but I"m not touching that line with a 10 foot pole. “If I’m not mistaken that’s Lakewood Church in Houston led by Joel Osteen in the picture”

I think you are right Trevor. It used to be the Compaq center before Lakewood bought it. I used to go see the Rockets and the Aeros play there. Saw the circus once too, but I”m not touching that line with a 10 foot pole.

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]]> By: Dominic Glisinski http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70239 Dominic Glisinski Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:42:43 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70239 Man is completely helpless to change himself; quote by Steve ----------------------- yeah...Man is, like, the lowest form of life...like scum, like totally depraved...y'know? Here is where the Protestant][Catholic divide stands out sharply; where as the typical evangelical protestant sees Man as so totally depraved that to even conceive of having a desire for the good is impossible, the catholic view sees Man as the pinnacle of creation, God's crown of life graced with the breath of life and granted a part in governing creation, "in His image". There is an innate respect for all human life as animated by the Spirit of God, whether they acknowledge their creator or not... ------------------------- The only reason that a Christian can “cultivate” their spiritual is by the Holy Spirit quote by Steve ----------------- Is anyone disagreeing with you? The gospel is comprehensive; my reference to extremity was the implied narrowness of your definitions. How broad a brush stroke do you envision when you bandy about terms like Gospel, Salvation, and Holy Spirit? You say "it is the Holy Spirit who does the work": so is that implying that we must lay about inert until we get up some "Holy Ghost Fire" or somesuch to read the scriptures...or is it possible for your average Joe Christian to out of the blue pick up his breviary and pray the Hours even when he feels discouraged, exhausted, stressed, angry, upset, etc? Is it a volitional act of human will, or are we automatons acting against our will, lapsing into deepest depravity or inactivity apart from some fantastic visitation accompanied by rushing winds and tongues of fire? I grant you that our union with Christ is the impetus and essence of all we are and all we are becoming. I would assert that no one is exempt from the influence of the Holy Spirit in some degree whether they be "saved" or "unsaved" according to whatever your particular theory is in that regard. Thus, while works before "salvation" do not tend to eternal reward or merit grace in any way; they are indeed quite possible, and I see them each day in the lives of those I meet in life, deeds of tenderness, compassion, charity, genuine love for others, concern for the needy, etc. Man may be "very far gone" from original righteousness, but not yet fallen off the cliff as you would impute. Man is completely helpless to change himself;
quote by Steve
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yeah…Man is, like, the lowest form of life…like scum, like totally depraved…y’know?

Here is where the Protestant][Catholic divide stands out sharply; where as the typical evangelical protestant sees Man as so totally depraved that to even conceive of having a desire for the good is impossible, the catholic view sees Man as the pinnacle of creation, God’s crown of life graced with the breath of life and granted a part in governing creation, “in His image”. There is an innate respect for all human life as animated by the Spirit of God, whether they acknowledge their creator or not…
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The only reason that a Christian can “cultivate” their spiritual is by the Holy Spirit
quote by Steve
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Is anyone disagreeing with you? The gospel is comprehensive; my reference to extremity was the implied narrowness of your definitions. How broad a brush stroke do you envision when you bandy about terms like Gospel, Salvation, and Holy Spirit? You say “it is the Holy Spirit who does the work”: so is that implying that we must lay about inert until we get up some “Holy Ghost Fire” or somesuch to read the scriptures…or is it possible for your average Joe Christian to out of the blue pick up his breviary and pray the Hours even when he feels discouraged, exhausted, stressed, angry, upset, etc? Is it a volitional act of human will, or are we automatons acting against our will, lapsing into deepest depravity or inactivity apart from some fantastic visitation accompanied by rushing winds and tongues of fire?

I grant you that our union with Christ is the impetus and essence of all we are and all we are becoming. I would assert that no one is exempt from the influence of the Holy Spirit in some degree whether they be “saved” or “unsaved” according to whatever your particular theory is in that regard. Thus, while works before “salvation” do not tend to eternal reward or merit grace in any way; they are indeed quite possible, and I see them each day in the lives of those I meet in life, deeds of tenderness, compassion, charity, genuine love for others, concern for the needy, etc. Man may be “very far gone” from original righteousness, but not yet fallen off the cliff as you would impute.

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]]> By: Discernment http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70221 Discernment Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:33:40 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70221 It seems that I'm not watching or reading the right people, and that my evangelical church isn't representative of the norm, because I find my pastors and the people I like to watch do a rather good balance of both -- and sometimes within the same sermon at that. Are most Evangelical and Charismatic/Pentecostal type preachers more like T.D. Jakes and Joyce Meyer, or are they like Joel Osteen? (Or are Jakes and Meyer almost as vacuous as Osteen?) It seems that I’m not watching or reading the right people, and that my evangelical church isn’t representative of the norm, because I find my pastors and the people I like to watch do a rather good balance of both — and sometimes within the same sermon at that. Are most Evangelical and Charismatic/Pentecostal type preachers more like T.D. Jakes and Joyce Meyer, or are they like Joel Osteen? (Or are Jakes and Meyer almost as vacuous as Osteen?)

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]]> By: Steve http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70203 Steve Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:24:47 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70203 Mark, The only reason that a Christian can "cultivate" their spiritual is by the Holy Spirit. Man is completely helpless to change himself; it is the Holy Spirit who does the work. Jesus stated that he is the vine and we are the branches, without him we can do nothing. The teachings that many "Evanglical" churches proclaim aren't the teachings found in the bible, but social teachings. Mark,

The only reason that a Christian can “cultivate” their spiritual is by the Holy Spirit. Man is completely helpless to change himself; it is the Holy Spirit who does the work. Jesus stated that he is the vine and we are the branches, without him we can do nothing.

The teachings that many “Evanglical” churches proclaim aren’t the teachings found in the bible, but social teachings.

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]]> By: Mark V. http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70201 Mark V. Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:52:44 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70201 This is an interesting thread since few articles have pursued the lack of interior spiritual practice at megachurches. Most recent articles have focused on the prosperity "gospel" angle. Regarding the debate above, I think both Dominic and Steve are correct. Salvation is entirely by the grace of God, but the Christian must cultivate his spiritual life every day of his life's journey. I would like to see future news articles discuss this debate, especially with increased evangelical interest in broader stewardship issues such as the fight against poverty and global warming, rather than political activism or the pastor's new private jet. This is an interesting thread since few articles have pursued the lack of interior spiritual practice at megachurches. Most recent articles have focused on the prosperity “gospel” angle. Regarding the debate above, I think both Dominic and Steve are correct. Salvation is entirely by the grace of God, but the Christian must cultivate his spiritual life every day of his life’s journey. I would like to see future news articles discuss this debate, especially with increased evangelical interest in broader stewardship issues such as the fight against poverty and global warming, rather than political activism or the pastor’s new private jet.

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]]> By: Active Christian Media » Continuing Coverage on the Fall of Ted Haggard http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70198 Active Christian Media » Continuing Coverage on the Fall of Ted Haggard Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:37:00 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70198 [...] Since the fall of Ted Haggard Get Religion has been following the story and all of it’s fall out. I want to encourage you to check out the site and read what they are saying. [...] […] Since the fall of Ted Haggard Get Religion has been following the story and all of it’s fall out. I want to encourage you to check out the site and read what they are saying. […]

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]]> By: Trevor http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70188 Trevor Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:24:02 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70188 Thank you for changing the photo Mollie. :) If I'm not mistaken that's Lakewood Church in Houston led by Joel Osteen in the picture. It matches perfectly with the articles! Thank you for changing the photo Mollie. :) If I’m not mistaken that’s Lakewood Church in Houston led by Joel Osteen in the picture. It matches perfectly with the articles!

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]]> By: Steve http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70184 Steve Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:01:59 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70184 How is my definition extreme? If the gospel of Christ crucified for sinners extreme, then so be it. Salvation is 100% God, 0% man. How is my definition extreme? If the gospel of Christ crucified for sinners extreme, then so be it. Salvation is 100% God, 0% man.

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]]> By: Dominic Glisinski http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70180 Dominic Glisinski Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:58:34 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70180 "the tension between practical messages and the tendency to avoid the inner life." quote by Mollie ----------------------- This yawning void in evangelical theology is one of my primary grievances and reasons for leaving. The practical emphasis in most preaching and teaching centers on polishing the outside of the cup...keeping oneself unspotted from the wicked world whilst clobbering anyone different than you over the head with your hardcover NIV Bible. The notion that salvation entails a cultivating a deep interiority and spiritual life within as suggested by Merton, Evelyn Underhill, etc, is dismissed as "impractical" at best and superstitious at worst..relics of dreaded Romanism. The legal idea, that salvation is some sort of transaction signed, sealed, and filed away somewhere in heaven, tends to de-emphasise the need for a daily infusion of grace through the application of the spiritual disciplines. Steve...your definition of both "gospel" and "salvation" must be very narrow and limited in the extreme. “the tension between practical messages and the tendency to avoid the inner life.”
quote by Mollie
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This yawning void in evangelical theology is one of my primary grievances and reasons for leaving. The practical emphasis in most preaching and teaching centers on polishing the outside of the cup…keeping oneself unspotted from the wicked world whilst clobbering anyone different than you over the head with your hardcover NIV Bible. The notion that salvation entails a cultivating a deep interiority and spiritual life within as suggested by Merton, Evelyn Underhill, etc, is dismissed as “impractical” at best and superstitious at worst..relics of dreaded Romanism. The legal idea, that salvation is some sort of transaction signed, sealed, and filed away somewhere in heaven, tends to de-emphasise the need for a daily infusion of grace through the application of the spiritual disciplines.

Steve…your definition of both “gospel” and “salvation” must be very narrow and limited in the extreme.

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]]> By: Deborah http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70173 Deborah Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:51:43 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70173 <blockquote>This theological statement [that evangelicals emphasize concrete action over the "inner life"] could be explored much more. </blockquote> I wonder if any journalist will be savvy enough to consult people like Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, et al. on this question if (or, more likely, <em>when</em>) the occasion arises again. Several of Willard's recent books in particular have addressed this very topic.

This theological statement [that evangelicals emphasize concrete action over the “inner life”] could be explored much more.

I wonder if any journalist will be savvy enough to consult people like Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, et al. on this question if (or, more likely, when) the occasion arises again. Several of Willard’s recent books in particular have addressed this very topic.

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]]> By: Mollie http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70167 Mollie Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:52:13 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70167 OKAY OKAY OKAY! I removed the photo! And I added another one from the same Google Image search ("megachurch"). So it may be just as inappropriate. OKAY OKAY OKAY! I removed the photo! And I added another one from the same Google Image search (“megachurch”). So it may be just as inappropriate.

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]]> By: Trevor http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70166 Trevor Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:46:37 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70166 Thank you for pointing us to these articles. Like the first two people who left a comment, I was surprised to see a photo of the LDS Conference Center attached to this posting. Thank you for pointing us to these articles. Like the first two people who left a comment, I was surprised to see a photo of the LDS Conference Center attached to this posting.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70164 Steve Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:23:03 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70164 If "real world advice" is what is important, then what is the roll of the Gospel? Is salvation of one's soul not a "real world" issue? If Jesus didn't come to be the means of salvation in his suffering, death, and resurrection, then why did he come? The practical message of the Gospel is that God came and died for sinful man so that man can be reconciled to God. If this is not practical, then nothing else a church proclaims is important. If “real world advice” is what is important, then what is the roll of the Gospel? Is salvation of one’s soul not a “real world” issue? If Jesus didn’t come to be the means of salvation in his suffering, death, and resurrection, then why did he come?

The practical message of the Gospel is that God came and died for sinful man so that man can be reconciled to God. If this is not practical, then nothing else a church proclaims is important.

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]]> By: Harris http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70160 Harris Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:30:37 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70160 Another aspect of the mega-church is the institutional failings of small churches: their inability to provide the same level of service as the megachurch, and so driving out members; "Baumol's cost disease" is the term. This is all covered in Mark Chaves' "Supersized" in the November 28 issue of <em>The Christian Century</em>. Alas it is not yet online. Another aspect of the mega-church is the institutional failings of small churches: their inability to provide the same level of service as the megachurch, and so driving out members; “Baumol’s cost disease” is the term. This is all covered in Mark Chaves’ “Supersized” in the November 28 issue of The Christian Century. Alas it is not yet online.

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]]> By: Tona http://www.getreligion.org/2006/11/in-praise-of-valid-angles/comment-page-1/#comment-70149 Tona Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:58:22 +0000 http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2064#comment-70149 I was going to make the same comment. It's a great shot of a big sacred-space interior, but it's not a megachurch by definition. LDS congregations, by design, are split if they reach a certain tipping point number. A Mormon mega-ward would be impossible. It's a good photo, though. Um, and is the game real? I was going to make the same comment. It’s a great shot of a big sacred-space interior, but it’s not a megachurch by definition. LDS congregations, by design, are split if they reach a certain tipping point number. A Mormon mega-ward would be impossible. It’s a good photo, though. Um, and is the game real?

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